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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
9780 Posts
joined 24 Dec 04

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  14:30:39  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Probably not SPC. Its parent company Coca Cola Amatil found $100 million to tip in, with the Victorian Government adding $22 million. If that's not enough, or if it gets swallowed up "upgrading facilities" with no improvement in SPC's profitability, maybe then SPC will be next.

You don't have to answer this, but could you clear one thing up for me: These "too many Abbott Government examples to list" - Could you list them for us, and then tell us whether you blame the Abbott Government totally for their impending closure, and if not totally, then how much? Maybe start with Ford, Holden and Toyota, and then any others you include in the "too many to list". I'll help you with the first one: Ford. Ford Australia lost $430,000,000 over the past two years despite all the government subsidies, and despite the Australian Government being prepared to offer more assistance. Ford's MD, Bob Graziano said its decision to close would not be reversed. That was on October 9, 2013 - barely one month after the Coalition became the Government. I think we can rule out Ford - and Alcoa too, while we're at it. Oh, and SPC as well.
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AlbertM
Crackpot



12532 Posts
joined 15 Jan 03

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  15:38:10  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Zac

$40 million to keep a couple of jobs for how long? Until another $40 million, and then another, and then the place closes anyway.

$882 million is a massive amount of money, and as I said a few posts ago, it stinks that News Corp was paid that money., but it is relatively "tiny" in that it is less than $0.5% of government debt, and not the cause of any "budget emergency". Correct.



If compared to Rupert's payout, 22 years. 22 years of employment, company tax, income tax from workers.

As you said, a "tiny" amount in the overall scheme of things.

I'm not naive to thing it's that simple. But with what seem one plant closure after another. The Liberals have scrapped or delayed most if not all infrastructure projects. We are to expect deep cuts "that will hurt the people" in the next budget.

There is no plan in place to compensate for the loss of Jobs. That, coupled with welfare and the loss of tax revenue it's only going to get harder to pay back any debt.

One thing high unemployment does, it brings down wages, que workchoices Ver. 2.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford
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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
9780 Posts
joined 24 Dec 04

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  16:37:22  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

One thing high unemployment does, it brings down wages
Yes, it does - and high wages in a flat economy brings down employment (and so does a high dollar). I'm not blaming either Labor or the Coalition for the flat economy. It was coming regardless of what party was to become the government, and both sides of politics knew it was coming. We're not into high unemployment yet, but we're heading that way. I don't think either side has a solution. On one side we've got Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott, and on the other we've got Chris Bowen and Bill Shorten. Not very reassuring, is it? We've got the boffins in Treasury and Finance, but they're better at doing what they're told more than being original thinkers.

We've had the "recession we had to have" and other downturns in the economy before, but we don't have a Paul Keating or a Peter Costello, a John Howard or even a Ralph Willis or a John Dawkins to steer us through. Spending more on infrastructure or spending less on infrastructure is fiddling around at the problem, but I think spending less is probably slightly better right now. We've done the spending more for the past seven years, and it didn't do much except increase government debt. Nope, I don't have an answer, but I think that rather than trying to follow either some Left or Right ideology, we need an original thinker, someone with a healthy ego, but pragmatic enough to just make strong economic decisions regardless of their ideology. Keating did that, instead of just following the Labor "democratic socialisation of industry, production..." etc. He's still floating around somewhere - and so are Howard and Costello, but I doubt they're interested.

Edited by - Zac on 20 Feb 2014 17:23:17
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REM
Team Manager



Australia
14227 Posts
joined 27 Sep 03

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  20:05:17  Show Profile Send REM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I know this is a blokey-anglo-middle class site.....but has anybody.....anybody....noticed the utter mess at Mannus Island?

anyone?

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid!
"Remember that in the end nobody wins, unless everybody wins!" Springsteen BTR.


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falcon_cobra
Kiss Fanatic



Sweden
8813 Posts
joined 02 Dec 04

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  20:25:48  Show Profile  Click to see falcon_cobra's MSN Messenger address Send falcon_cobra a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
what mess?

_Mvolvo
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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
9780 Posts
joined 24 Dec 04

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  21:14:04  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by REM

I know this is a blokey-anglo-middle class site.....but has anybody.....anybody....noticed the utter mess at Mannus Island?

anyone?
Manus Island? I don't know about "the utter mess", but I do know about the place. It hardly raised a murmur in Australia from its WWII days, and even when it became part of John Howard's 'Pacific Solution'. It became better known when Kevin Rudd's Labor Government closed it in 2008 calling it "a cynical, costly, and largely unsuccessful exercise". It became even better known when the same government, but led by Julia Gillard, reopened it in 2012 "to resume offshore processing". Then in 2013, Kevin Rudd, back leading that same government said: "Asylum seekers who come here by boat without a visa will never be settled in Australia". Unfortunately, he was not stopping these asylum seekers from getting on boats in the first place, and they kept coming. Those same people from those boats are still on Manus Island, and are now realising that they really won't be settled in Australia. They're not happy.

I might be a blokey, middle-class Anglo-Saxon, but I recognise that it's a problem, if not an utter mess. If I was one of those people detained there, I would be very unhappy. I also recognise that those people calling themselves "refugees", having heard of the benefits, economic and otherwise, of becoming Australians, just flying out of their home countries to places like Indonesia, to pay criminals (who promise them a trip to Australia, at exorbitant prices) expecting to arrive here without visas, expecting to just join other Australian immigrants (who in the main, have come here via fair and legal means), while genuine refugees, who can't just freely buy airline tickets out of their countries, languish in miserable camps, just over the borders from the regimes they're fleeing. I'm more concerned with those people.

If we could stop the illegal and dangerous trade with people smugglers, which we've tried to do in various ham-fisted ways, we could really implement a bigger, fairer immigration system. Things aren't good on Manus Island, (although the reports of what is happening there vary widely in their coverage, depending on the views of those reporting, most of whom aren't actually there), but just closing the place down and welcoming all those detained there into Australia only creates another "utter mess".
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REM
Team Manager



Australia
14227 Posts
joined 27 Sep 03

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  22:10:36  Show Profile Send REM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Zac

quote:
Originally posted by REM

I know this is a blokey-anglo-middle class site.....but has anybody.....anybody....noticed the utter mess at Mannus Island?

anyone?
Manus Island? I don't know about "the utter mess", but I do know about the place. It hardly raised a murmur in Australia from its WWII days, and even when it became part of John Howard's 'Pacific Solution'. It became better known when Kevin Rudd's Labor Government closed it in 2008 calling it "a cynical, costly, and largely unsuccessful exercise". It became even better known when the same government, but led by Julia Gillard, reopened it in 2012 "to resume offshore processing". Then in 2013, Kevin Rudd, back leading that same government said: "Asylum seekers who come here by boat without a visa will never be settled in Australia". Unfortunately, he was not stopping these asylum seekers from getting on boats in the first place, and they kept coming. Those same people from those boats are still on Manus Island, and are now realising that they really won't be settled in Australia. They're not happy.

I might be a blokey, middle-class Anglo-Saxon, but I recognise that it's a problem, if not an utter mess. If I was one of those people detained there, I would be very unhappy. I also recognise that those people calling themselves "refugees", having heard of the benefits, economic and otherwise, of becoming Australians, just flying out of their home countries to places like Indonesia, to pay criminals (who promise them a trip to Australia, at exorbitant prices) expecting to arrive here without visas, expecting to just join other Australian immigrants (who in the main, have come here via fair and legal means), while genuine refugees, who can't just freely buy airline tickets out of their countries, languish in miserable camps, just over the borders from the regimes they're fleeing. I'm more concerned with those people.

If we could stop the illegal and dangerous trade with people smugglers, which we've tried to do in various ham-fisted ways, we could really implement a bigger, fairer immigration system. Things aren't good on Manus Island, (although the reports of what is happening there vary widely in their coverage, depending on the views of those reporting, most of whom aren't actually there), but just closing the place down and welcoming all those detained there into Australia only creates another "utter mess".



Zac, Zac, Zac...always with the...."It's just a flesh wound.....!!!"

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid!
"Remember that in the end nobody wins, unless everybody wins!" Springsteen BTR.


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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
9780 Posts
joined 24 Dec 04

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  22:23:14  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
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27GV
Team Manager



5249 Posts
joined 20 Jul 08

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Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  23:25:51  Show Profile Send 27GV a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by REM

I know this is a blokey-anglo-middle class site.....but has anybody.....anybody....noticed the utter mess at Mannus Island?

anyone?



REM, it's a lost cause. It isn't a Liberal or Labour issue because both have shown complete ineptness at dealing with the situation.

What needs to happen is some of the chain of command put in jail for allowing a refugee to be murdered by a Papuan mob, but the government (all of them) will protect themselves.


_Mford
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Trev
Team Manager



Australia
5741 Posts
joined 13 Feb 03

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Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  05:41:05  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by REM

Zac, Zac, Zac...always with the...."It's just a flesh wound.....!!!"

I agree with Zac 100% on this

Too many do-gooders are involved who refuse to accept the reality of these 'asylum seekers', they are seeking a new profitable life, they are not fleeing

I reserve the right to arm bears

Edited by - Trev on 21 Feb 2014 05:41:52
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REM
Team Manager



Australia
14227 Posts
joined 27 Sep 03

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Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  09:19:17  Show Profile Send REM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Trev

quote:
Originally posted by REM

Zac, Zac, Zac...always with the...."It's just a flesh wound.....!!!"

I agree with Zac 100% on this

Too many do-gooders are involved who refuse to accept the reality of these 'asylum seekers', they are seeking a new profitable life, they are not fleeing



Show me stats Trev....not rhetoric and a Daily Telegraph-Murdoch level analysis....! I put up figures earlier in this thread...approximately 90% of people applying for asylum with Australia are found to be genuine refugees! Don't let the fascists appeal to your lower instincts and fears of difference on this....they have wedged this very successfully....

and have a read of this....http://thedamiansmith.tumblr.com/post/75213269214/give-me-liberty

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid!
"Remember that in the end nobody wins, unless everybody wins!" Springsteen BTR.



Edited by - REM on 21 Feb 2014 09:23:30
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Trev
Team Manager



Australia
5741 Posts
joined 13 Feb 03

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Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  10:04:56  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I don't have to read anything, a bloke I met a while ago heads up the Interpreters Association, I am going by why he tells me not some bull-**** spin

Most are financial refugess

I reserve the right to arm bears
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27GV
Team Manager



5249 Posts
joined 20 Jul 08

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Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  12:15:53  Show Profile Send 27GV a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australia-running-out-of-money-for-medicare-says-treasurer-joe-hockey-20140221-335j0.html

Running out of money? Funny, we had a mining tax that could have raised you some Mr. Hockey but Gina didn't like that.

More economic mismanagement and negativity from the layoff Libs. Boy, Gillard feels like the good old days already.


_Mford
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bigem
A polar bear



Australia
15994 Posts
joined 22 Jun 04

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Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  13:12:03  Show Profile Send bigem a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
So Mr Hockey wants to slug everybody for more Medicare money, nothing has changed since he was in the Howard administration!

Our 'breath of fresh air' new government has a stale 'used-by' smell about it already!!

New Commodore Hey! So you used your own money? Would you like to buy a used bridge?
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27GV
Team Manager



5249 Posts
joined 20 Jul 08

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Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  15:05:24  Show Profile Send 27GV a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abbott-government-to-spend-4b-on-new-patrol-aircraft-20140221-335t4.html

Oh hey, I see why we're running out of money. Budget emergency and we buy $4 billion worth of 12 planes that will be built in America.

But $40 million to save thousands of jobs is a waste. Layoff Libs at it again.


_Mford
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