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Zac
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  18:03:22  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by 27GV

You mean the plane the head of the program said was "not yet good enough"?
Yeah, that's it. The one that Labor had already decided to go ahead with and the current government is continuing with - the one with the 'out' clauses in the purchasing agreement, should there be various reasons to do so. We can wait until something is "good enough", but cutting edge defence technology is continually evolving. The F35 purchase is like almost every other major defence purchase we have made. Whether it's F/A 18s, F-111s, Collins Class subs or any other major defence purchase, there will be production problems, escalating costs, developing programs on these purchases (i.e., waiting until they're "good enough") etc., and there will always be criticism of whatever we buy. That's the way it is when buying defence items. We can buy cheaper, off-the-shelf items, but that raises another lot of issues and criticisms.

Is the F35 the best 'bang for our buck'? I wouldn't have a clue - but I'll leave that to those in the RAAF who have been working on this decision for years rather than someone who says the plane "may not be the best option for Australia". There's always an alternative view, but why are alternative views any more correct than those of our defence experts?


Edited by - Zac on 23 Apr 2014 18:07:13
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AlbertM
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  18:13:39  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Inspiring defense Zac, wish someone used that for the knobbled NBN...oh wait!

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford
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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  20:03:33  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
On reflection, my saying that it was Labor that made the decision to purchase the F35 was a very poor defence of that purchase.
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Trev
Team Manager



Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  21:00:40  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Budget emergency - spend $12 billion, what a ****en joke this Government is, I am so ****en angry right now

Cut the pension, increase the retirement age Joe (the ****) Hockey, you are the skid mark on the undies of Australia

I reserve the right to arm bears
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Legendary Gerry
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  21:02:25  Show Profile Send Legendary Gerry a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
As Zac said, it was ok for Labor Gov't to start this process but not ok for Liberal Gov't to continue with it...
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AlbertM
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  22:14:05  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Labor weren't screaming "budget emergency" and going to sting the working class more to pay for everything.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford
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Trev
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  22:42:05  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You can't be dolling out BIG money with one hand and crying poor with the other, sorry it is a **** act in anybody's language

I reserve the right to arm bears
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bigcol
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2014 :  23:55:16  Show Profile Send bigcol a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
That's ok by the time Joe Hockit is finished we would have sold them to some investment group in Indonesia



Must be a tough gig to find some one in the LNP that actually has ethics.
What's this number 3 now.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/campbell-newman-learned-of-david-gibson-issues-three-weeks-ago-20140423-373sp.html

ONLY LITTLE BOYZ WEAR BOWTIES

Edited by - bigcol on 24 Apr 2014 00:04:07
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Legendary Gerry
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  09:22:35  Show Profile Send Legendary Gerry a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

Labor weren't screaming "budget emergency" and going to sting the working class more to pay for everything.



No, they just handed out money left, right and centre.
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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  10:00:55  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
FWIW, Australia's defence budget had been reduced under Labor, and is being restored to its previous size under the Coalition. Our defence budget under Labor was 1.55% of GDP and is being raised to 1.7% of GDP under the current government. On a list of defence spending relative to the size of each country's economy, Australia currently rates at 57th in the world.
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Trev
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Australia
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  13:35:09  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
and where are immediate threats that we need that many 'stealth' planes, come on you blokes, this is a waste of money

I reserve the right to arm bears
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Zac
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Australia
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  15:34:26  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I haven't heard anyone in government mention any immediate threats, because there aren't any - but we can't wait until there is a threat and then ring around to see who can build us some planes, then wait until they're built and delivered, and then start training pilots and groundstaff to fly and service them. By way of example: Australia ordered 75 F/A18s in 1981. They started arriving in 1984, and they are still our main defence aircraft - and will be for some time yet. That will be some 40 years after they were ordered. We are ordering less F35s than the 75 F/A18s, and we aren't expecting them to be in service as long. Current planning is up to 2050.

As long as countries spend on defence, there will be criticism of how much is spent. How much is too much? How much is not enough? As long as we have no threats (immediate or otherwise), people will say we spent too much. Maybe that spending reduced the threats. If there is a serious threat, you can guarantee we won't have spent enough.

I can think of about five or six nations that could be possible threats to Australia within the next 35 years, and there will be others I haven't thought of. I'm not going to list any, just as the Government won't list any - especially after our current PM and recent past PMs have been visiting some of those countries telling them what great friends we are.

Edited by - Zac on 24 Apr 2014 15:42:35
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Trev
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  15:47:34  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Spending is fine as long as you don't punish the needy to do it, and that is exactly what Hockbrain is going to do

I reserve the right to arm bears
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Zac
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Australia
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  16:46:58  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Have a look at this, Trev. It might make you feel a bit better. Look at the pie-chart at the bottom of this link. It shows how much of the federal budget is spent on Defence. You can see that Social Welfare is well and truly the biggest spend, followed by Health. Defence makes up about 1/17th. That's for Wayne Swan's budget last year, but despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth, and although the amounts vary, this year's Hockey budget will be around the same as far as the pie-chart will look.

http://www.canstar.com.au/opinions/election-year-expectations/

That reminds of something I meant to say when we were talking about the pension age being raised (sometime in the near future from 65 to 67, and possibly some time further in the future being raised to 70). Some on here were saying that a lot of people are/will be unable to work to those ages. No-one in the government is saying they have to. They are saying that they will have to rely on their super for at least a couple of years before they can start claiming the pension. BTW, that was a sensible and well conceived Paul Keating idea. Paul could see those of us in the baby-boomer bubble all heading for retirement in a big heap. How's your super? Mine's a bit like the Defence budget. How much is too much, and how much is not enough? No matter how much I have, if I face the threat of living to 100, it won't be anywhere near enough. If I cark it sometime in the near future, it'll be way too much.
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AlbertM
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Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  17:12:37  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Legendary Gerry

quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

Labor weren't screaming "budget emergency" and going to sting the working class more to pay for everything.



No, they just handed out money left, right and centre.

Like paying big business to pollute, let mining off the tax hook and continue its heavy subsidies, extravagant parental leave scheme, some new planes that aren't yet operational...

Then there is the budget blow out where Hockey spent twice as much in 6 months than Labor ever did.


Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford
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