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karter
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Posted - 15 Apr 2015 :  20:22:37  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
As far as I can see Trev, your questions are about me personally, and not about the topic.

For the record, I was once a union delegate too. (CFMEU) I saw firsthand what a rort that was.

Certainly unions have a place. Unfortunately some of them seem see their place as being branches of organised crime.

The rest of your post is pretty much crap. And personal abuse, as usual.
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Trev
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Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  05:35:14  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
So I take it you are not going to answer the questions?

I reserve the right to arm bears
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karter
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  06:17:40  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
why the **** should I? Are you going to answer my ON TOPIC question about the ALP and balanced budgets? Actually don't bother, I can find out or myself. Pretty sure I know what the answer is anyway.
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bundy5
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  06:25:03  Show Profile Send bundy5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by karter

why the **** should I? Are you going to answer my ON TOPIC question about the ALP and balanced budgets? Actually don't bother, I can find out or myself. Pretty sure I know what the answer is anyway.



Yeah I gave the answer anyway and Trev doesn't seem to have a problem with what I said.

To respond to Bruce in the NRL thread: it is probably the single hardest loss I have had to deal with at Souths to lose Bully. Much worse than Sam Burgess as he didn't symbolise Souths as Bully did. I think a lot will underestimate just how much a loss he will be to Souths but I fully understand how engrossed he is with NZ and I think given that he will make the successful transition that others haven't.
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Zac
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Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  08:29:53  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Trev

I know quite a number of Liberal and National Party voters who are Unionists, in fact one NP voter mate of mine was a Union delegate and quite a radical one at that. I know this might shock you, but it is a fact.
I have just done some idle musing on this fact. I don't doubt such a person exists/existed, but he would be an extremely rare person. Here are some numbers to run through:

As of August 2013 (Australian Bureau of Statistics)

Population of Australia: 23.13 million
Total number of employed people in Australia: 10.3 million
Total number of union members in Australia: 17% of employed people

Since those figures are almost two years old, they won't be totally accurate, but in that time, Australia's population has steadily risen and union membership has steadily dwindled.

Throw into those above figures the number of union delegates in Australia. This is difficult to know. I've gone through various articles/reports/websites from the ACTU and various unions, and the ratio of delegates to union members varies all over the place. One report from Greg Combet stated that only 18% of workplaces in Australia had active delegates. That's hard to imagine, but even if I raise that to 100%, I found on various union websites that the ideal - or recommended ratio of delegates to members varied from 1 in 20 to 1 in 90. I'll work on 100% of work places (with union membership) have active delegates, and the ratio of delegates to members at 1 in 20, or 5%.

On the National Party side of the numbers: In the 2013 Federal Election, the National Party gained 4.3% of the total vote of 12.915 million. 12.915 million was around 55% of the Australian population in 2013.

I haven't calculated all those numbers to work out the possible maximum number of union delegates in Australia who could be National Party members, but I'll go with a very rough guess before I do any calculations of approximately 0. However, that doesn't mean that there can't be a few. There again, this bloke you know/knew was "quite a radical one". That would reduce the numbers considerably, I would think.

Moving on: There is/was quite possibly a National Party voting, quite radical, union delegate out there somewhere. The three criteria aren't mutually exclusive. I suppose there's a few Christian Muslim jihadists out in the world somewhere as well.

No need to feel compelled to answer any of this. It's just some musings/ramblings I went through in the early hours of this morning.
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bigem
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Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  08:39:43  Show Profile Send bigem a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
A balanced budget is about the lowest priority of most governments around the world at the moment.

Considering we do not subsidise our primary production and manufacturing industries to compete on the open markets and yet our deficit is comparatively low in proportion to GDP, a balanced budget is a non-event.

Stimulateing trade, productivity increases, fairer taxation laws for everyone not just big business, reducing unemployment and curtailing social security blowouts are far more important.

If you adopt 'austerity' measures, ie, reduce spending, cut services, allow huge business to rort the tax system, the result is recessionary as it points to lower interest rates to promote spending, higher unemployment due to extreme funding cutbacks, higher foreign lending due to less actual cash being produced here, and the dilemma facing the leadership-less Abbott government, bad policies that are starting to really impact mum and dad Australia, which means less money into the coffers, and the cycle keeps repeating until your economy grinds to a halt!

Abbotts Australia!!

The Federal budget will introduce a higher nominal tax rate from 33cents to 37cents in the dollar, and a tax placed on all banking deposits: did you Abbott lovers vote for that?

The federal budget will not return to surplus, its folly, its a pipe dream, its not that important, albeit, it does have some serious consequences, consequences tat do not need or require dealing with in the next 8 months!!

Hockey and Abbott talked down our economy, they did more damage in opposition than most of us thought, they then spent the next 17 months in government talking down our economy, its no wonder there is zero business confidence in it, and why the RBA is now calling for Abbott to call a double disalusion to hopefully get our economy out of 'stall' mode.

Abbott has made a real mess of this, he should do the honorable thing and step down, he is a dud!!

New Commodore Hey! So you used your own money? Would you like to buy a used bridge?
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Trev
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Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  09:32:41  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Zac

Moving on: There is/was quite possibly a National Party voting, quite radical, union delegate out there somewhere
would you like his phone number, he lives in Swan Hill, you might catch him at a Mason meeting or accepting his award for citizen of the year

I reserve the right to arm bears
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CP
Safety Car Pilot



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  12:27:32  Show Profile  Visit CP's Homepage Send CP a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by bigem

A balanced budget is about the lowest priority of most governments around the world at the moment.



Its a bit hard to follow through with that promise when you base Operation Budget Repair solely on how much resources you expect to sell over the financial year, the price of which has nosedived.
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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  14:40:57  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
"Solely" is probably not the word you were looking for, CP. Australia's resources sold each year represent 7% of Australia's GDP. How about: "...when you base Operation Budget Repair partly on 7% of what you expect to sell over the financial year, the price of which has nosedived."? It's still a fair chunk of revenue lost to repairing the budget, but not quite the sole revenue.

Trev, "I don't doubt such a person exists/existed, but he would be an extremely rare person". I did a bit more calculating (definitely too much free time today):

Union delegates = 0.003782% of the population, and that's using numbers to give the highest possible number of union delegates in Australia. The actual number is almost certainly well under half that, going on what unions tell us - say 0.001891%, but I'll go with half rather than a more realistic figure, so 0.001891%.

National Party voters = 2.4% of the population. How many union delegates do you think could be National Party voters? If you just work on total Australian figures of NP voters of 2.4%, then we're down to 0.00004538% of the population being NP voting union delegates - but it's unlikely that the total Australian figures of NP voters would be represented by unionists, and less likely again amongst union delegates. I'd say if the number of NP voting union delegates was anywhere near 1/2 of the total national percentage of NP voters, it'd be even more surprising. More likely to be 1/10. Let's go with half. That's now 0.00002269% of the population or 5.248197 NP voting union delegates in Australia - but they're not the "quite radical" ones. I don't know how many union delegates are quite radical. 1 in 10, maybe - but to help us along, I'll go with half that. 1 in 5.

So there we go. Working on pretty optimistic numbers to find the highest possible numbers of quite radical, NP voting union delegates, I've come up with a total of 1 - and he lives in Swan Hill, and you know him. An extremely rare person, and probably a really top bloke as well.
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Trev
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Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  15:36:29  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You have far too much time on your hands

I reserve the right to arm bears
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Zac
Lumberjack



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  16:06:48  Show Profile Send Zac a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Trev

You have far too much time on your hands
And I'm not even a unionist.
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Trickyonne
Sex God



Vatican City
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  16:14:10  Show Profile Send Trickyonne a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Zac

quote:
Originally posted by Trev

You have far too much time on your hands
And I'm not even a unionist.




Ford 2018 champions
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bundy5
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Posted - 16 Apr 2015 :  21:12:20  Show Profile Send bundy5 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Zac

"Solely" is probably not the word you were looking for, CP. Australia's resources sold each year represent 7% of Australia's GDP. How about: "...when you base Operation Budget Repair partly on 7% of what you expect to sell over the financial year, the price of which has nosedived."? It's still a fair chunk of revenue lost to repairing the budget, but not quite the sole revenue.

Trev, "I don't doubt such a person exists/existed, but he would be an extremely rare person". I did a bit more calculating (definitely too much free time today):

Union delegates = 0.003782% of the population, and that's using numbers to give the highest possible number of union delegates in Australia. The actual number is almost certainly well under half that, going on what unions tell us - say 0.001891%, but I'll go with half rather than a more realistic figure, so 0.001891%.

National Party voters = 2.4% of the population. How many union delegates do you think could be National Party voters? If you just work on total Australian figures of NP voters of 2.4%, then we're down to 0.00004538% of the population being NP voting union delegates - but it's unlikely that the total Australian figures of NP voters would be represented by unionists, and less likely again amongst union delegates. I'd say if the number of NP voting union delegates was anywhere near 1/2 of the total national percentage of NP voters, it'd be even more surprising. More likely to be 1/10. Let's go with half. That's now 0.00002269% of the population or 5.248197 NP voting union delegates in Australia - but they're not the "quite radical" ones. I don't know how many union delegates are quite radical. 1 in 10, maybe - but to help us along, I'll go with half that. 1 in 5.

So there we go. Working on pretty optimistic numbers to find the highest possible numbers of quite radical, NP voting union delegates, I've come up with a total of 1 - and he lives in Swan Hill, and you know him. An extremely rare person, and probably a really top bloke as well.



Union delegates may only represent .004 of the general population but they represent 90% of the federal Labor party caucus.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XnfplOEaUU0


To respond to Bruce in the NRL thread: it is probably the single hardest loss I have had to deal with at Souths to lose Bully. Much worse than Sam Burgess as he didn't symbolise Souths as Bully did. I think a lot will underestimate just how much a loss he will be to Souths but I fully understand how engrossed he is with NZ and I think given that he will make the successful transition that others haven't.
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Trev
Team Manager



Australia
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  06:00:01  Show Profile  Visit Trev's Homepage Send Trev a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I will say again, what is so wrong with Unions, most of the working conditions you currently enjoy are a result of Union work, yes at times they step over the mark

All conditions enjoyed by workers have been fought for bu Unions AND agreed to by Businesses, this doesn't happen without the employers sign-off, so if employers are unhappy then they need to look in a mirror and condemn themselves for maybe being a bit too weak

Generally people who are Union employees have been workers in the industry, they are fighters for what is perceived to be right, they are seasoned negotiators, they care about their fellow humans and fight tenaciously for what is right - are you this kind of person Bundy or something a bit weaker? Are you the person who sits back and whinges and whines but does **** all when it all comes down to it?

Why don't you condemn employer organsiations, they can be just as radical (to the right), I know lets out them for all their rorting

I thinking the greatest karma event of all time was the ICAC in NSW, set up by the Liberals to expose Labor and took more Liberals including the Premier for shonky behaviour - LOL

From an American website and many apply here
quote:
Did you know that labor unions made the following 36 things possible?

Weekends without work
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
Paid vacation
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Sick leave
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination
8-hour work day
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40-hour work week
Workers' compensation (workers' comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions
Workplace safety standards and regulations
Employer health care insurance
Collective bargaining rights for employees
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)
Sexual harassment laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday pay
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance
Privacy rights
Pregnancy and parental leave
Military leave
The right to strike
Public education for children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States



============================================================
EDIT:

found this on an American forum - interesting

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/public-concern-over-the-transpacific-partnership-trade-deal-mounts-20150416-1mmhwt.html

I reserve the right to arm bears

Edited by - Trev on 17 Apr 2015 06:28:54
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karter
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Posted - 17 Apr 2015 :  07:09:16  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Hmmm, when I was in a union, I didn't get official mealbreaks, (we took our breaks when work load permitted) didn't get company provided health or dental insurance, didn't get paid overtime, didn't get paid shift penalties even though we worked day and night shifts, worked weekends, worked public holidays, contributed to my own superannuation fund (long before it was made compulsory)...

And every year at tax time my accountant commented on how high my union fees were...

When I was an employer, my employess weren't in any union, but were paid above award rates, got annual leave, sick leave, worked 37 hour weeks, got meal breaks etc etc etc....

Just saying.

Edited by - karter on 17 Apr 2015 07:12:56
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