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DJRford
Team Manager



Australia
10585 Posts
joined 19 Jun 11

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Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  12:18:23  Show Profile Send DJRford a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by journeyman racer

Yeah. But you're not supposed to be doing that. That is not racing

Leclerc could've turned in early to hit the apex (like what is considered normal), and Verstappen would've got done over because he wasn't ahead. It would've just been another banzai move that wouldn't have been made.

Whether he's climbing on kerbs and barging Sainz out of the way in Bahrain, or completely missing the apex and driving off innocent guys off track. He's a dirty campaigner. I suppose that's why people like him.



Agreed. Max is fast. Very fast actually, but he is a dirty driver. The way I see it you have to leave racing room. If he did and Charles stayed ahead then so what? That's racing, means Max would have to try again in another spot. Pushing someone off the track to stop any chance of them getting back ahead is not good racing. I get that every driver wants to win but performing dick moves to do it cheapens it a bit for me.

"Holden name goes, T8 and HRT band together and become: Chevrolet United National Team Sports, has a nice ring? Headed up by Roland of course!!" - REM

























































































_Mford














"This whole thing is just a media beat up and you V8 Supercar fans( another name for suckers, bogans, lowlifes etc ) have taken the bait hook line and sinker." - Champcarman
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karter
Team Manager


11736 Posts
joined 21 Sep 04

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Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  12:29:43  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Yep, Max certainly isn't the cleanest around. And it's a reputation that'll work for him. There will be drivers who'll just ket him pass rather than risk getting punted off.
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journeyman racer
Team Manager



Australia
1583 Posts
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Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  19:57:29  Show Profile Send journeyman racer a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Ok, it's confirmed. You condone dirty driving.

I don't think it'll be a reputation that'll work for him. No one in the current field is going to be intimidated by him, including those that are thought of as soft. Drivers now are already hyper aggressive, and this'll will only encourage even more aggression form drivers making their way into F1 in subsequent years. He'll be targeted and seen as a scalp.

I'd also say that he's already missed out due to his thuggery. He's never won a race through "intimidation". But he did miss out at Brazil last year. There's no way that Ocon drills anyone else the way he did to Verstappen.

No1 fan of James Courtney's ex-wife!

Edited by - journeyman racer on 02 Jul 2019 22:07:05
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mikeamerica84
V8 Champion



USA
1119 Posts
joined 11 Jan 08

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Posted - 03 Jul 2019 :  07:36:11  Show Profile Send mikeamerica84 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by skaifeman


We follow the B-pillar rule generally don't we? It would be fine.


Escorting him completely off of the track post B pillar is what I questioned. I would assume he would have to give him a bit of racing room or be pinged.

The V8CFL - Without fantasy, life is simply life

Edited by - mikeamerica84 on 03 Jul 2019 07:37:26
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karter
Team Manager


11736 Posts
joined 21 Sep 04

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Posted - 03 Jul 2019 :  13:41:25  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by journeyman racer

Ok, it's confirmed. You condone dirty driving.

I don't think it'll be a reputation that'll work for him. No one in the current field is going to be intimidated by him, including those that are thought of as soft. Drivers now are already hyper aggressive, and this'll will only encourage even more aggression form drivers making their way into F1 in subsequent years. He'll be targeted and seen as a scalp.

I'd also say that he's already missed out due to his thuggery. He's never won a race through "intimidation". But he did miss out at Brazil last year. There's no way that Ocon drills anyone else the way he did to Verstappen.



You really have the weirdest version of logic.

Occon didn't "drill" Verstappen, Verstappen turned in on him. It's pretty clear your eyesight is appalling. Occon was almost entirely off the track in his efforts not to collide with Verstappen.

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tusker
Formula Ford Driver


346 Posts
joined 29 Nov 07

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Posted - 03 Jul 2019 :  17:44:14  Show Profile  Visit tusker's Homepage Send tusker a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
My first thought when I saw that move for the lead was that Max had pushed Leclerc just a bit too much.

My problem with the whole 'save the sport by making the right call' on such things is the lack of consistency.

As far as I know, there have been no rule changes since Vettel's +5 in Canada and Ricciardo's +10 in France. And yet some people in the press are saying that the decision to not ping Max was good for the sport, but I also get the impression that regardless, some knew he might have been in the wrong.

So are they saying it's okay to bend the rules for the sake of the sport? Whatever happened to maintaining consistency (and probably integrity) by applying whatever rules are in place properly, and changing them through the correct processes if they need to be changed? I am not sure I want to see drivers take things into their own hands (ref: with all respect to 4x WDC Vettel, his comments on the weekend), because we could end up with a whole lot of biff and barge mayhem. I don't want to see it go NASCAR-style at all.
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karter
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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  07:07:00  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Once again, Vettel and Ricciardo were penalised for unsafe return to the track and in Ricciardo's case gaining advantage by leaving the track.

The common theme is THEY LEFT THE TRACK. Verstappen didn't leave the track.

The rules concerning leaving the track are clear.

You have to re-join safely.
You can't gain an advantage.

None of this applies in any way to Verstappen vs LeClerc, because Verstappen DIDN'T LEAVE THE TRACK.
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tusker
Formula Ford Driver


346 Posts
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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  10:40:03  Show Profile  Visit tusker's Homepage Send tusker a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Thanks Karter. It looked to me that Max was a bit heavy-handed in his treatment of Leclerc as they went through the turn, with Leclerc being pushed wide. To me it looked like it was on the side of being dirty - not massively, but dirty nevertheless.
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karter
Team Manager


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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  11:52:27  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I'm wondering, if they were going to penalize Max, what rule he actually broke?

I guess it might be causing a collision, there was light wheel to wheel contact, but we've seen much heavier wheel to wheel go unpunished.

I don't like Max and certainly it wasn't a clean pass, it just didn't seem dirty enough to penalize IMO.
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skaifeman
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Australia
6907 Posts
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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  12:49:36  Show Profile Send skaifeman a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
100% karter. It wasn't a clean pass, but a pass nonetheless.

Are we overlooking the fact that Le Clerc may have turned down on him (not deliberately).
Journeyman Racer says that Le Clerc was going for the high line, to optimise the straight... but Max had his car parked there, and was definitely his corner.
Would it be on Le Clerc to pull out and avoid contact, as you would if there were a wall on the exit. It was pretty clear that racing room was running out.


"Fordís Bathurst winning bonus didnít even cover the cost of the after-party" - Allan Moffat, 1977
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tusker
Formula Ford Driver


346 Posts
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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  13:43:19  Show Profile  Visit tusker's Homepage Send tusker a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I thought there had to be a hard and fast rule relating to someone being helped off like that, Karter. Maybe there isn't, which might be why the decision went the way it did. I'm still not happy about the possibility that we could end up with more crash fests in the future if this stuff starts to get out of hand.

I think yourself, Skaifeman and I are on the same page about clean or not clean the pass on Leclerc was. I just differ in terms of which side of the fence I sit on about how it should have been treated. No doubting that the decision that the stewards made backs up your position, which of course says something. Happy to leave it at that.
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karter
Team Manager


11736 Posts
joined 21 Sep 04

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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  18:03:43  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by skaifeman

100% karter. It wasn't a clean pass, but a pass nonetheless.

Are we overlooking the fact that Le Clerc may have turned down on him (not deliberately).
Journeyman Racer says that Le Clerc was going for the high line, to optimise the straight... but Max had his car parked there, and was definitely his corner.
Would it be on Le Clerc to pull out and avoid contact, as you would if there were a wall on the exit. It was pretty clear that racing room was running out.





Sitting out wide like that when Verstappen is right behind you is kind of inviting him to stick it up the inside.
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STP01
Team Manager



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joined 15 Mar 07

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Posted - 04 Jul 2019 :  18:10:46  Show Profile Send STP01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by skaifeman

100% karter. It wasn't a clean pass, but a pass nonetheless.

Are we overlooking the fact that Le Clerc may have turned down on him (not deliberately).
Journeyman Racer says that Le Clerc was going for the high line, to optimise the straight... but Max had his car parked there, and was definitely his corner.
Would it be on Le Clerc to pull out and avoid contact, as you would if there were a wall on the exit. It was pretty clear that racing room was running out.



I'm not sure how you can say it was Verstappen's corner when they hit side by side, axles almost lined up perfectly.

It seemed pretty clear that Leclerc was going the high line as he did the previous lap, which worked. He made no attempt to defend to the inside, despite having plenty of opportunity to do so before Verstappen chose to go inside. Watch the onboard from Verstappen, he has lots of steering lock on through the corner, but opens the steering up to crowd Leclerc off the track. Thats when the contact occurs. It was avoidable.

There are rules in Appendix L of the International Sporting Code that say you can't crowd a driver off the track, or cause a collision. Verstappen did both. However, like most F1 rules, they are open to some interpretation.

But the stewards were never going to penalise Verstappen at the Red Bull Ring in a sea of orange. It has set a precedent though.

Congratulations Jamie Whincup on 7 Championships!

Edited by - STP01 on 04 Jul 2019 18:12:47
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journeyman racer
Team Manager



Australia
1583 Posts
joined 12 Nov 13

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Posted - 05 Jul 2019 :  22:07:32  Show Profile Send journeyman racer a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Obviously if I go on about the Verstappen/Ocon incident in Brazil last year, I'll get a coloured square.

But let's just take stock for the moment that kerter's fundamental lack of understanding of driving conduct in racing is so low, that not even the leader of the race is entitled to protection from belligerence from a dumb **** backmarker attempting to unlap himself.

**** me.

If you want some clarity on whether Verstappen should've got done over. Just speculate on what these answers could be to the following questions.

Charles, why didn't you hit the apex of the kerb?

Max, why didn't you hit the apex of the kerb?

No1 fan of James Courtney's ex-wife!

Edited by - journeyman racer on 05 Jul 2019 22:08:21
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karter
Team Manager


11736 Posts
joined 21 Sep 04

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Posted - 06 Jul 2019 :  07:52:34  Show Profile Send karter a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Is last year beyond the reach of your memory? Obviously it is. Occon was penalized because he was a backmarker, and while entitled to unlap himself, he has to do it without impeding the leaders.

If Occon had been on the lead lap he wouldn't have been penalized.

But yes, me, the stewards, the vast majority of the F1 press, many ex-drivers, none of us understand the sport. No it's only some numpty keyboard warrior who's never actually raced who truly understands racing.

Edited by - karter on 06 Jul 2019 08:00:34
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