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JD
V8 Champion


1050 Posts
joined 09 Mar 05

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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  15:55:03  Show Profile  Visit JD's Homepage Send JD a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

the article couldn't be any clearer.

Not to me

So both the Nissan and Holden now have NO lead ballast in the roof but the Mustang still has a ****load !!!! Yep that seems fair.

“The Mustangs won’t lose all of their ballast because it’s got so much ballast, but the good thing is the Nissan doesn’t have any (in the roof) anyway, and it will bring the Holden down to none, so that’s good.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/07/09/triple-eight-labels-cog-tweak-a-smart-decision/

Edited by - JD on 09 Jul 2019 15:56:27
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Jam3s
Team Manager


2769 Posts
joined 02 Mar 13

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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  18:32:17  Show Profile Send Jam3s a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by JD

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

the article couldn't be any clearer.

Not to me

So both the Nissan and Holden now have NO lead ballast in the roof but the Mustang still has a ****load !!!! Yep that seems fair.

“The Mustangs won’t lose all of their ballast because it’s got so much ballast, but the good thing is the Nissan doesn’t have any (in the roof) anyway, and it will bring the Holden down to none, so that’s good.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/07/09/triple-eight-labels-cog-tweak-a-smart-decision/

The amount of ballast the mustang has in the roof is irrelevant because all cars share the same COG. Roof ballast does not affect car performance, COG does.

The mustang has the SAME relative cog after this modification as it did before this change, there is NO relative performance adjustment between marquees taking place here. This shouldn't be difficult to understand.
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Kieron302
Team Manager


Australia
6295 Posts
joined 14 May 03

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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  18:54:12  Show Profile Send Kieron302 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

Did anyone actually read the article?

There is NO difference to relative COG between cars. They have removed 6.8kg from both the ZB and 9kg from the Mustang and better incorporated the remaining Mustang ballast in a safer manner instead of the hose clamped lead method. Nissan has then had their lowered to match the change in COG of the ZB and Mustang. No one has lost or gained out of this, it's just tidying up the changes made earlier in the season.

The end result is all cars get their COG lowered slightly and a much tidier and safer solution for all.



The article was poorly worded hence plenty of confusion and your explanation is different to mine -

ZB had 6.7kg's moved to its roof earlier this year.
'Stang, 28kg moved to its roof at the same time.

Now, ZB has that 6.7kg's moved back to the floor.
'Stang has 9kg moved back down to the floor and 19kg's left on top by swapping the CF components for steel.

If the indeed was the case, the Mustang was robbed of 9kg's earlier this year so has now received an adjustment in its favor!
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Jam3s
Team Manager


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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  19:07:22  Show Profile Send Jam3s a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Kieron302

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

Did anyone actually read the article?

There is NO difference to relative COG between cars. They have removed 6.8kg from both the ZB and 9kg from the Mustang and better incorporated the remaining Mustang ballast in a safer manner instead of the hose clamped lead method. Nissan has then had their lowered to match the change in COG of the ZB and Mustang. No one has lost or gained out of this, it's just tidying up the changes made earlier in the season.

The end result is all cars get their COG lowered slightly and a much tidier and safer solution for all.



The article was poorly worded hence plenty of confusion and your explanation is different to mine -

ZB had 6.7kg's moved to its roof earlier this year.
'Stang, 28kg moved to its roof at the same time.

Now, ZB has that 6.7kg's moved back to the floor.
'Stang has 9kg moved back down to the floor and 19kg's left on top by swapping the CF components for steel.

If the indeed was the case, the Mustang was robbed of 9kg's earlier this year so has now received an adjustment in its favor!


I'm perplexed how you come to that conclusion. The first part of your post is correct but the last sentence is not true. For the 3rd time, as written clearly in the article, there is no difference in cog parity between the cars after this change compared to before it. For this to be true, there must be no performance gain for any of the marquees as a result of the change.

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Kytabu
First of the losers



Australia
2698 Posts
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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  19:08:04  Show Profile  Visit Kytabu's Homepage Send Kytabu a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Kieron302

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

Did anyone actually read the article?

There is NO difference to relative COG between cars. They have removed 6.8kg from both the ZB and 9kg from the Mustang and better incorporated the remaining Mustang ballast in a safer manner instead of the hose clamped lead method. Nissan has then had their lowered to match the change in COG of the ZB and Mustang. No one has lost or gained out of this, it's just tidying up the changes made earlier in the season.

The end result is all cars get their COG lowered slightly and a much tidier and safer solution for all.



The article was poorly worded hence plenty of confusion and your explanation is different to mine -

ZB had 6.7kg's moved to its roof earlier this year.
'Stang, 28kg moved to its roof at the same time.

Now, ZB has that 6.7kg's moved back to the floor.
'Stang has 9kg moved back down to the floor and 19kg's left on top by swapping the CF components for steel.

If the indeed was the case, the Mustang was robbed of 9kg's earlier this year so has now received an adjustment in its favor!


I'm reading it as 9kg is being removed from the Mustang's roof with the other 19kg staying, and then extra weight is being added to the roof using the steel parts. I'm assuming the steel parts weigh around 2.2kg more than the composite parts which would match the weight change to that of the ZB.


Edited by - Kytabu on 09 Jul 2019 19:08:54
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Jam3s
Team Manager


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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  19:16:39  Show Profile Send Jam3s a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
And to quote the supercars article which should put all confusion to rest:
“The repositioning maintains the current CoG balance between all makes and has an equal effect on performance for all.”
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HRTKLR
No.1 Ford Fan



Australia
9571 Posts
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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  19:34:39  Show Profile Send HRTKLR a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Geez why don’t they just give the ZB twin turbos and be done with it.
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JD
V8 Champion


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Posted - 09 Jul 2019 :  20:56:54  Show Profile  Visit JD's Homepage Send JD a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I'm still baffled

Go back and due to COG tests the ZB had 6.8kg added to its roof and the Mustang 28kg so their COG now matched that of the Nissan which had no extra ballast added.

Now

a) the Nissan has had previous ballast that was added to the top of its engine now moved into the sump,

b) the ZB has had the former additional 6.8kg removed from its roof and discarded.

c) 9kg of lead ballast is removed from the Mustangs roof area and discarded but steel beams are added and steel beams don't weigh nothing and it doesn't say they will be lighter than 9kg !!! ( "The Mustang will run steel beams in place of the 9kg of removed ballast.")

The only plausible explanation I can come up with is whilst it doesn't say so, these extra steel beams will only add up to being 2.2kg versus the 9kg removed thus equally the 6.8kg reduction of the ZB ??
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FOX 42
Team Manager



Australia
2718 Posts
joined 01 Jan 04

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  06:38:52  Show Profile Send FOX 42 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

And to quote the supercars article which should put all confusion to rest:
“The repositioning maintains the current CoG balance between all makes and has an equal effect on performance for all.”




And to quote supercars in the past, the downforce is even and the parity is closer than ever before.......


Oh but they must be telling the truth this time......

Nah, just another Mustang Ford stich up.
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troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
2521 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  08:27:47  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
People need to read the rules and do some research as you can find all the answer to the information people have seemed to miss on here.

Once again, I do not support mid season changes even in the slightest regardless of who or what is advantaged/disadvantaged but whilst the rules around car building and parity are so poorly written and interpretated this is going to be a big problem for some time yet.

I have lost a hell of a lot of interest this season due to all the bull**** surrounding parity and changes. I would of much gathered see Scotty lapping the field and the rest to be sorted in the off season.
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oldtimer
Team Manager



4030 Posts
joined 19 Jun 11

 online

Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  08:29:15  Show Profile Send oldtimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by FOX 42

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

And to quote the supercars article which should put all confusion to rest:
“The repositioning maintains the current CoG balance between all makes and has an equal effect on performance for all.”




And to quote supercars in the past, the downforce is even and the parity is closer than ever before.......


Oh but they must be telling the truth this time......

Nah, just another Mustang Ford stich up.



Accusing someone or an organisation of lying or not telling the truth at some time is a form of abuse.

In any case, it can be entirely true that something is closer than ever before, then is improved and is then even closer.

In the end the cars all weigh the same and all carry ballast.
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skaifeman
Team Manager



Australia
6909 Posts
joined 01 Aug 09

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  09:19:29  Show Profile Send skaifeman a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by FOX 42

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

And to quote the supercars article which should put all confusion to rest:
“The repositioning maintains the current CoG balance between all makes and has an equal effect on performance for all.”




And to quote supercars in the past, the downforce is even and the parity is closer than ever before.......


Oh but they must be telling the truth this time......

Nah, just another Mustang Ford stich up.


So they do things quietly behind the scenes = we whinge about needing transparency.

They release an article about what's happening = "Nah, just another Mustang Ford stitch up."

...they can never win.


"Ford’s Bathurst winning bonus didn’t even cover the cost of the after-party" - Allan Moffat, 1977
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HRTKLR
No.1 Ford Fan



Australia
9571 Posts
joined 20 Dec 02

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  09:28:58  Show Profile Send HRTKLR a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by skaifeman

quote:
Originally posted by FOX 42

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

And to quote the supercars article which should put all confusion to rest:
“The repositioning maintains the current CoG balance between all makes and has an equal effect on performance for all.”




And to quote supercars in the past, the downforce is even and the parity is closer than ever before.......


Oh but they must be telling the truth this time......

Nah, just another Mustang Ford stich up.


So they do things quietly behind the scenes = we whinge about needing transparency.

They release an article about what's happening = "Nah, just another Mustang Ford stitch up."

...they can never win.



I know what you mean but I think the point is they just won’t stop meddling.
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Harry S
Fujitsu Driver



Australia
635 Posts
joined 29 Mar 09

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  10:52:13  Show Profile Send Harry S a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by skaifeman

[quote]Originally posted by FOX 42


So they do things quietly behind the scenes = we whinge about needing transparency.

They release an article about what's happening = "Nah, just another Mustang Ford stitch up."

...they can never win.



Agree with this - also, when they DO release a very clearly-worded article about what's happening, people with low or no technical understanding complain that the article is poorly-worded or not clear, or simply don't understand.

When the going gets tough..............
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JD
V8 Champion


1050 Posts
joined 09 Mar 05

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  12:23:19  Show Profile  Visit JD's Homepage Send JD a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Harry S
..........Agree with this - also, when they DO release a very clearly-worded article about what's happening, people with low or no technical understanding complain that the article is poorly-worded or not clear, or simply don't understand.
OK in view of the above, answer this simple question for me and probably many others here.

We know that the ZB previously had 6.8kg added to its roof but this has now been deleted so it will have nil additional ballast in its roof.

A Supercars very clearly worded article excerpt.

"The latest changes mean the ZB will have all its ballast (6.8kg) removed, while 9kg of ballast will be removed from the roof and in addition some composite parts will be replaced by steel roof beams in the Mustang."

On the basis the Mustang previously had 27kg added as mentioned in this Supercar release so very clearly it will now have 18kg of this ballast left in its roof.

But given the above and the fact the additional steel roof beams must also weigh something minus that of the composite parts that are being replaced with these beams, your question requiring a definitive Supercars type clear answer is;

Exactly how many kg's will now be in the Mustangs roof compared to the ZB with nil ?

https://www.supercars.com/news/championship/supercars-makes-ballast-changes-for-ipswich/

Edited by - JD on 10 Jul 2019 20:50:19
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