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Harry S
Fujitsu Driver



Australia
635 Posts
joined 29 Mar 09

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  13:33:08  Show Profile Send Harry S a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by JD
OK in view of the above, answer this simple question for me and probably many others here.
Ok - my question to you is why are you and "many others" focussing on the fluff part of the release (which you do not quote from correctly by the way - would help if you did that rather than inserting your own wording into it) but instead on the relevant part - which is that relative CoG doesn't change between the models.

The existing ballast on the top of the Nissan's engine will be moved to the sump and that specific weight isn't in there either - because it is not needed.

The point is that a large amount of CAD work has been done with the teams and minor changes have been made that tidy up ballast, keep the CoG relativity the same between makes and which also lower the CoG of all three makes by the same amount.

Happy to assist

When the going gets tough..............

Edited by - Harry S on 10 Jul 2019 17:26:44
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Mechz
Pit Crew



139 Posts
joined 16 Mar 09

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  19:44:32  Show Profile Send Mechz a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.

666
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Jam3s
Team Manager


2771 Posts
joined 02 Mar 13

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  19:51:17  Show Profile Send Jam3s a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.

clutching at straws now to find anything you can convince yourself that the mustang has been disadvantaged again... Doesn't it get tiring trying to find any excuse to feel like a victim?
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Mechz
Pit Crew



139 Posts
joined 16 Mar 09

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  21:22:57  Show Profile Send Mechz a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.

clutching at straws now to find anything you can convince yourself that the mustang has been disadvantaged again... Doesn't it get tiring trying to find any excuse to feel like a victim?



Not really just interested in the physics of it all. I mean, Dane thinks it's a good thing so it must be an advantage for them.

666
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JD
V8 Champion


1051 Posts
joined 09 Mar 05

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  21:40:11  Show Profile  Visit JD's Homepage Send JD a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Harry, sorry, I assumed you would notice my "in addition" was bolded and also below etc to make a clear point but in any event it changed their actual quote how, as they are additions ???

Yes, I'm aware of the "final relevant part" but just wanted to know how that came about as contrary to your opinion Supercars comment is as clear as mud and deep down I smell a small rat.

In a nutshell as you cannot answer my simple question then I guess you would have to agree their release is actually devoid of detail and my next question is why ?

You are entitled to believe the COG is the same for all models and it may now very well be.

But you'd have to ask yourself this. Why was it so hard for Supercars to not have have included simple facts such as the total amount of ballast that will now be in the Mustangs roof instead of the gobbykook provided that says nothing, ie a simple quote that the Mustang was also reduced in total by 6.8kg by doing xyz etc. They said the ZB's lost its full 6.8kg so why not identify how they got the Mustangs result to presumably equal that.

Or could it be that due to their new CAD info the former 27kg was found to be totally wrong so it was now adjusted to where it should have been in the first place.

Are they not being transparent because to do so and include these actual makeup figures would clearly show that they previously screwed up with the former 27kg addition ???

Like always we won't know but given the lack of this simple detail in their release makes me believe all is not as it seems or wasn't and that's my perogative

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skaifeman
Team Manager



Australia
6911 Posts
joined 01 Aug 09

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  21:50:53  Show Profile Send skaifeman a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

quote:
Originally posted by Jam3s

quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.

clutching at straws now to find anything you can convince yourself that the mustang has been disadvantaged again... Doesn't it get tiring trying to find any excuse to feel like a victim?



Not really just interested in the physics of it all. I mean, Dane thinks it's a good thing so it must be an advantage for them.


We have a sef-acclaimed physicist on here... maybe they could shed some light?


"Fordís Bathurst winning bonus didnít even cover the cost of the after-party" - Allan Moffat, 1977
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joe5619
Team Manager



Australia
4452 Posts
joined 01 Mar 03

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Posted - 10 Jul 2019 :  22:41:30  Show Profile Send joe5619 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Why couldn't they just wait until the end of the year!!
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djr18fan
Team Manager



New Zealand
1729 Posts
joined 06 Jul 06

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Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  04:50:55  Show Profile Send djr18fan a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.



You could do this simple test at home:

Find a table with 4 legs. Dining table or coffee table maybe.
Put your bathroom scales under one leg. For good measure put a book or something under the other legs to level the table.
Find 4 items of the same weight and place one in each corner. Maybe some empty coke bottles filled with water.
Record the change in weight shown on the scales.
Now move those containers all to the middle of the table and see what the scales say.
You could spread the weights around the table, imagining the location of cage bars. And the the table feet are legs.

_Mford
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Harry S
Fujitsu Driver



Australia
635 Posts
joined 29 Mar 09

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Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  08:15:56  Show Profile Send Harry S a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by JD


Yes, I'm aware of the "final relevant part" but just wanted to know how that came about as contrary to your opinion Supercars comment is as clear as mud and deep down I smell a small rat.

Like always we won't know but given the lack of this simple detail in their release makes me believe all is not as it seems or wasn't and that's my perogative

Looking at the numbers for the weight in the roof achieves nothing in a CoG discussion unless you have all the numbers for the weight locations throughout the car, or the information on the CoG of each of the models being raced - both before and after this change.

Supercars and the teams have that information & they agree with the changes. Not much else to it really. The weights in the Supercars article are fluff and provide info for illustrative purposes only - the full detail of exactly which weight will now be located where throughout the entire car of all three models is not listed as it would defeat the purpose of the release - to advise that the ballast changes are being made to tidy up the current ballast installation and that the different models retain the same CoG as each other.

Yes, you're right that it is your prerogative to be worried about reds under the bed but I think that if you feel that way, wording one way or another in a release is unlikely to change your view.


When the going gets tough..............

Edited by - Harry S on 11 Jul 2019 08:17:38
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Legendary Gerry
Moderator



Australia
22231 Posts
joined 19 Feb 07

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Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  08:37:09  Show Profile Send Legendary Gerry a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by djr18fan

quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.



You could do this simple test at home:

Find a table with 4 legs. Dining table or coffee table maybe.
Put your bathroom scales under one leg. For good measure put a book or something under the other legs to level the table.
Find 4 items of the same weight and place one in each corner. Maybe some empty coke bottles filled with water.
Record the change in weight shown on the scales.
Now move those containers all to the middle of the table and see what the scales say.
You could spread the weights around the table, imagining the location of cage bars. And the the table feet are legs.



Corner weights are critical as to how a car handles!
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Mechz
Pit Crew



139 Posts
joined 16 Mar 09

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Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  09:01:10  Show Profile Send Mechz a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Legendary Gerry

quote:
Originally posted by djr18fan

quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.



You could do this simple test at home:

Find a table with 4 legs. Dining table or coffee table maybe.
Put your bathroom scales under one leg. For good measure put a book or something under the other legs to level the table.
Find 4 items of the same weight and place one in each corner. Maybe some empty coke bottles filled with water.
Record the change in weight shown on the scales.
Now move those containers all to the middle of the table and see what the scales say.
You could spread the weights around the table, imagining the location of cage bars. And the the table feet are legs.



Corner weights are critical as to how a car handles!



Exactly my thoughts LG.

djr18fan (side note; commiserations on your name choice) maybe you can do a simple test at home. Firstly google corner weights vs centre of gravity as you've not really understood the difference.

Secondly, get 2x 2L bottles of Jim Beam or milk, whatever you have laying around, then hold them out as far as your arms extend then try and move swiftly about your lounge room with changes of direction etc. Then maybe hold them on top of your head and move swiftly again in the same manner as before. You'll notice that changing direction is much easier when they're on your head. If you can be bothered, then you could try holding them by your side or against your chest for the same test again. I'm sure you'll understand my perspective then.

666
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djr18fan
Team Manager



New Zealand
1729 Posts
joined 06 Jul 06

 offline

Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  10:28:15  Show Profile Send djr18fan a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

quote:
Originally posted by Legendary Gerry

quote:
Originally posted by djr18fan

quote:
Originally posted by Mechz

I think this CoG change is not quite as fair for the Mustang because ballast strapped to the centre of the roof, just below the roll bar, is more central than replacing the cage bars that extend to the edge of the inside bodywork.



You could do this simple test at home:

Find a table with 4 legs. Dining table or coffee table maybe.
Put your bathroom scales under one leg. For good measure put a book or something under the other legs to level the table.
Find 4 items of the same weight and place one in each corner. Maybe some empty coke bottles filled with water.
Record the change in weight shown on the scales.
Now move those containers all to the middle of the table and see what the scales say.
You could spread the weights around the table, imagining the location of cage bars. And the the table feet are legs.



Corner weights are critical as to how a car handles!



Exactly my thoughts LG.

djr18fan (side note; commiserations on your name choice) maybe you can do a simple test at home. Firstly google corner weights vs centre of gravity as you've not really understood the difference.

Secondly, get 2x 2L bottles of Jim Beam or milk, whatever you have laying around, then hold them out as far as your arms extend then try and move swiftly about your lounge room with changes of direction etc. Then maybe hold them on top of your head and move swiftly again in the same manner as before. You'll notice that changing direction is much easier when they're on your head. If you can be bothered, then you could try holding them by your side or against your chest for the same test again. I'm sure you'll understand my perspective then.


OK. I tried that.
I found that I was more prone to toppling over when the bottles were on top of my head, because my cog was higher than in other tests.
I felt more balanced with arms outstretched. Much like a tight rope walker.

_Mford
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EgoFG
Fujitsu Driver



Australia
645 Posts
joined 16 Oct 08

 offline

Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  11:41:24  Show Profile Send EgoFG a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I wonder if they have gone for a 3d CoG parity. I am guessing only 2d ish.

It seems to my eye that the Mustang with ballast pic originally had less weight over the drivers side roof.

The forklift test could only easily check two planes, but would most likely do them together - you could not tell the difference between top heavy and Left heavy (assuming lifting from the left, and that they did not go to tipping point)
I am guessing a scale under each wheel could address the left/right and fore/aft CoG.

On the referenced article - I am guessing the difference between the 6.8 mandatory ballast removed from the holden, and the 9 removed from the Mustang must be the difference in the weight of the support beams. It is the only explanation assuming 1) they had CoG parity and 2) they will continue to have CoG parity
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JD
V8 Champion


1051 Posts
joined 09 Mar 05

 offline

Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  11:57:34  Show Profile  Visit JD's Homepage Send JD a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Harry S
Looking at the numbers for the weight in the roof achieves nothing in a CoG discussion unless you have all the numbers for the weight locations throughout the car, or the information on the CoG of each of the models being raced - both before and after this change....................... The weights in the Supercars article are fluff and provide info for illustrative purposes only....................full detail of exactly which weight will now be located where throughout the entire car of all three models is not listed as it would defeat the purpose of the release .
Yet despite all this Supercars in this new release still go to the point of specifying the former end result was 6.2kg was added to the ZB's roof and 27kg to the Mustangs roofs !!!!

But now surprise surprise and how fortutious that even after they did all your new total car cog calculations it turns out that that exact 6.2kg previously put in the ZB's roof can now be removed, how aresy was that.

Yet, we have no idea whatsoever what kg remain in the Mustangs. Give me a break. It could even be more. No wonder Dutton is happy.

I couldn't give a flying fig about who does what or how etc etc but the constant crap from Supercars is getting hard to digest.

Of course it may not mean much in the total scheme of things but if they can and do specify exactly how many kg's was removed from the ZB's roof as a result of these NEW tests then why not in the Mustang, which then obviously raises the simple obvious question of why not.
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Harry S
Fujitsu Driver



Australia
635 Posts
joined 29 Mar 09

 offline

Posted - 11 Jul 2019 :  13:47:03  Show Profile Send Harry S a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by JD

quote:
Originally posted by Harry S
Looking at the numbers for the weight in the roof achieves nothing in a CoG discussion unless you have all the numbers for the weight locations throughout the car, or the information on the CoG of each of the models being raced - both before and after this change....................... The weights in the Supercars article are fluff and provide info for illustrative purposes only....................full detail of exactly which weight will now be located where throughout the entire car of all three models is not listed as it would defeat the purpose of the release .
Yet despite all this Supercars in this new release still go to the point of specifying the former end result was 6.2kg was added to the ZB's roof and 27kg to the Mustangs roofs !!!!

But now surprise surprise and how fortutious that even after they did all your new total car cog calculations it turns out that that exact 6.2kg previously put in the ZB's roof can now be removed, how aresy was that.

Yet, we have no idea whatsoever what kg remain in the Mustangs. Give me a break. It could even be more. No wonder Dutton is happy.

I couldn't give a flying fig about who does what or how etc etc but the constant crap from Supercars is getting hard to digest.

Of course it may not mean much in the total scheme of things but if they can and do specify exactly how many kg's was removed from the ZB's roof as a result of these NEW tests then why not in the Mustang, which then obviously raises the simple obvious question of why not.


Again, what was removed is immaterial - the end result is what matters BUT the original ballast going up into the roof brought the CoG into alignment, with the Nissan being treated as the base line. Now that the Nissan has had the ballast previously on top of the engine relocated, it's CoG has been brought down, so measures have been taken to lower the CoG of the other two makes.

Clearly the movement of the Nissan's ballast and Holden's ballast was calculated to arrive at the same figure by removing the Holden ballast from the roof. Once those two were aligned, simply a case of what was needed to bring down the Ford's CoG to the new point - & that has been done. The Ford, being coupe will no doubt have more weight in the roof via ballast or heavier components than the other two (sedans) to compensate for the smaller roof area and achieve the same CoG.

The story referenced ballast and confirms how much was removed from the roof of both the Holden and the Ford but ultimately the key point is that CoG commonality has been maintained & that the people who are most impacted and who have the capacity to confirm that work (teams and commission) are happy with it.

When the going gets tough..............
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