No banner in farm
V8Central Forums
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Search | FAQ | Links | Private Messages
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 V8Supercars Australia
 V8Supercar Series
 Cost of developing a new model into Supercars
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Share
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

AlbertM
Crackpot



13000 Posts
joined 15 Jan 03

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  19:20:02  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So we don't run out of markers going off topic.

quote:
Originally posted by troy01505

quote:
Originally posted by REM

quote:
Originally posted by troy01505

quote:
Originally posted by Wrighty05

Interesting that DJRTP have taken up the mantle of most hated team in pit lane by the other teams

Is it a sign simply of success like 888 had? Or for the repeated rule breaches over the last 18 months?

Itís been an interesting shift



Teams love competition so I think the rule breaches are a part of it but the thing that has pissed people off is the money invested into the Mustang. Unless someone steps in, everyone but Penske will be broke or unable to develop the next generation cars. This is probably part of the reason Kelly is in Mustangs for 2020 and TC came up with his cap per car speech.



Your logic is kinda the opposite of what the Kelly's actually said.....the ZB and it's supply of parts by T8 is too expensive to consider......I know it is all the rage to blame Penske for everything...but the ZB being too expensive for the Kelly's is Roegr's fault is going too far!



I did type a reply but the ****er didnít load.

Here the gist, Mustang cost a fair heap more to design and build then the ZB so who if anyone can spend that next time? Penske and ?????? Triple 8 cant because unless you are at the top sponsors slowly drop off or push for reduced rates. TC knows this and probably why he done his whole spending cap speech.



If Mustang cost more, it was trying to fit the body to the chassis. Some big name helped with it, but I doubt it "cost a fair bit more" than ZB.

The Chassis is the same for every one, so that is not a development cost for a new model. The homologation team just have to fit the body. Aero is controlled so there is no point designing F1 levels of DF.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford

troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
3094 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  19:45:42  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Simple hey, just throw composite panels on following the shape of the cage, bang on a big wing and under tray and taaaadah Supercar. 100 grand should cover it

Edited by - troy01505 on 14 Nov 2019 19:46:23
Go to Top of Page

AlbertM
Crackpot



13000 Posts
joined 15 Jan 03

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  20:11:23  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You made the claim Mustang cost more, You made the claim that no one else but Penske can homologate a new model. If you actually know the specifics please share it with us. I find it intriguing.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford
Go to Top of Page

troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
3094 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  21:46:53  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Penske used its nascar and Indy car technology to design the thing. Apart from maybe the international part owners of WAU who else has access to that type of technology without purchasing, hiring or out sourcing? That alone will come at a significant cost.

Triple 8 funded the ZB and is still recouping costs. What teams are going to pay after it being 50% of the reason GRM pulled the pin?

Triple 8 just like a Tickford will struggle to keep sponsors onboard or even on the same rates as they are/were on when they were consistent contenders, by 2022 without results Redbull could be gone.

Teams are barely scraping through in the sports current state. You guys claim Triple 8 have the most money but they are barely breaking even. Kellyís are broke and downsizing.

Who do you think has as much money as Penske to throw at a car that will have a 1+ second per lap advantage over a 7 time champion from a team that has been at the top for a decade?

Sports either going to die or be overhauled.
Go to Top of Page

AlbertM
Crackpot



13000 Posts
joined 15 Jan 03

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  22:36:52  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Ford Performance designed the Mustang racer
Holden Helped 888. If a broke team can afford to switch brands, maybe GRM should have done the same.
DJRTP also rely on sponsors.
I have not claimed 888 have the most money.
Kelly's are not broke. Downsizing is so they don't go broke.
DJRTP Mustangs were never 1+ seconds faster than 888. If they were they would have lapped the field.
The sport will fail but not because teams can't afford to homologate new models.

Did Penske kick your dog or something?

BTW, 888 could run a ride on lawn mower and Supercars would slow the Fords to match. So it make no difference how much money Penske throws at the sport.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford

Edited by - AlbertM on 14 Nov 2019 22:41:36
Go to Top of Page

oldtimer
Team Manager



4501 Posts
joined 19 Jun 11

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  22:37:45  Show Profile Send oldtimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
A lot of the costs are due to silly stipulations that do not add to the racing.

i.e. Why can't they say that the engine must meet power standards, but how you get there is entirely up to the team.

If you look at part 1 of the Kelly Mustang build, you will hear, time and time again, that you can't buy parts, pulleys etc etc. It has to be individually designed and manufactured.

Yet there are a stack of purchasable parts that could do the job.

888's engine builders have suggested they could build a GM V8 (and probably Ford) at a significantly lower cost to get the same performance. Their more powerful Sprint Car engines are much cheaper.


Maybe they should just adopt TA2 regs with a modern bodies and an equivalent Ford engine to the GM. That would be a lot cheaper and racing would be just as good, or better.


https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/11/14/video-work-underway-on-kelly-racing-mustang-build/

Edited by - oldtimer on 14 Nov 2019 22:40:10
Go to Top of Page

abhibeckert
Formula Ford Driver



Australia
408 Posts
joined 10 Jan 18

 offline

Posted - 14 Nov 2019 :  22:54:03  Show Profile  Visit abhibeckert's Homepage Send abhibeckert a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Just to put some numbers out there - according to a speed cafe article back when the ZB was homolgated:

* the cost to add a ZB body shell to an existing chassis/engine was about $60k
* holden teams were upset as this was unexpected and too high
* triple 8 said they expected to spend 1.5 million developing the ZB (this was when the project had almost been finished)
* some unnamed Holden teams stated that canít have been right it would have been more like $300k to $800k

On the Mustang side Iím not aware of any reliable numbers but there were early reports Fordís budget was $2 million to develop the Mustang race car - but that number did not include money spent by DJRTP or Tickford who also contributed significant amounts. And it was early in the process so may have gone up - stuff always goes over budget in my experience

Edited by - abhibeckert on 14 Nov 2019 22:55:13
Go to Top of Page

troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
3094 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  10:03:46  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

Ford Performance designed the Mustang racer
Holden Helped 888. If a broke team can afford to switch brands, maybe GRM should have done the same.
DJRTP also rely on sponsors.
I have not claimed 888 have the most money.
Kelly's are not broke. Downsizing is so they don't go broke.
DJRTP Mustangs were never 1+ seconds faster than 888. If they were they would have lapped the field.
The sport will fail but not because teams can't afford to homologate new models.

Did Penske kick your dog or something?

BTW, 888 could run a ride on lawn mower and Supercars would slow the Fords to match. So it make no difference how much money Penske throws at the sport.



Whatís the point in posting a new topic if you are not going to discuss it? No one hates Penske or anyone else like you seem to think. Itís you who hate Holden and Supercars. Not sure why you bother keeping your obsession going.

Best of luck to you sir

Edited by - troy01505 on 15 Nov 2019 10:05:36
Go to Top of Page

Legendary Gerry
Moderator



Australia
22605 Posts
joined 19 Feb 07

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  10:37:05  Show Profile Send Legendary Gerry a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by troy01505

quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

Ford Performance designed the Mustang racer
Holden Helped 888. If a broke team can afford to switch brands, maybe GRM should have done the same.
DJRTP also rely on sponsors.
I have not claimed 888 have the most money.
Kelly's are not broke. Downsizing is so they don't go broke.
DJRTP Mustangs were never 1+ seconds faster than 888. If they were they would have lapped the field.
The sport will fail but not because teams can't afford to homologate new models.

Did Penske kick your dog or something?

BTW, 888 could run a ride on lawn mower and Supercars would slow the Fords to match. So it make no difference how much money Penske throws at the sport.



Whatís the point in posting a new topic if you are not going to discuss it? No one hates Penske or anyone else like you seem to think. Itís you who hate Holden and Supercars. Not sure why you bother keeping your obsession going.

Best of luck to you sir





Go to Top of Page

abhibeckert
Formula Ford Driver



Australia
408 Posts
joined 10 Jan 18

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  10:52:52  Show Profile  Visit abhibeckert's Homepage Send abhibeckert a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

If Mustang cost more, it was trying to fit the body to the chassis.

The mustang cost more because every body panel was custom engineered to make the car as fast as possible within the restrictions of the rule book.

Other cars were cheaper, because nearly all of the panels had no engineering work at all other than figuring out where to place bolts attaching them to the chassis/roll cage.

quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

DJRTP Mustangs were never 1+ seconds faster than 888. If they were they would have lapped the field.

This was the gap was 0.9 seconds at both Albert Park and Philip Island.

That's between the fastest Mustang and the Fastest ZB. Between DJRTP and Triple 8... for some events the gap has been around 2 seconds (not that I think this is a fair comparison, Triple 8 was clearly off their game at those events).

There's no doubt a lot of money was spent developing the Mustang, and the result is an extremely fast race car. Unless something changes, all future homologation teams will need similar budgets to be competitive against the fastest car.

Edited by - abhibeckert on 15 Nov 2019 11:03:25
Go to Top of Page

Fast by Ferracci
Team Manager



10471 Posts
joined 23 Sep 04

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  16:50:20  Show Profile Send Fast by Ferracci a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM



The Chassis is the same for every one, so that is not a development cost for a new model. The homologation team just have to fit the body. Aero is controlled so there is no point designing F1 levels of DF.
[/quote]

On a garage tour with GRM a few years back, it was explained to us that the chassis isnít the same for everyone. After 40% of the build is complete, each individual model is quite different and itís not a simple job to swap between models.
Go to Top of Page

AlbertM
Crackpot



13000 Posts
joined 15 Jan 03

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  17:41:35  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by oldtimer

A lot of the costs are due to silly stipulations that do not add to the racing.

i.e. Why can't they say that the engine must meet power standards, but how you get there is entirely up to the team.

If you look at part 1 of the Kelly Mustang build, you will hear, time and time again, that you can't buy parts, pulleys etc etc. It has to be individually designed and manufactured.

Yet there are a stack of purchasable parts that could do the job.

888's engine builders have suggested they could build a GM V8 (and probably Ford) at a significantly lower cost to get the same performance. Their more powerful Sprint Car engines are much cheaper.


Maybe they should just adopt TA2 regs with a modern bodies and an equivalent Ford engine to the GM. That would be a lot cheaper and racing would be just as good, or better.


https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/11/14/video-work-underway-on-kelly-racing-mustang-build/



Reliability could be the reason. Component failures are few and far between since teams started making their own parts. Sort of a trade off, spend big tooling up, making parts yourself or buying several parts to limit failures.

quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert


The mustang cost more because every body panel was custom engineered to make the car as fast as possible within the restrictions of the rule book.

Other cars were cheaper, because nearly all of the panels had no engineering work at all other than figuring out where to place bolts attaching them to the chassis/roll cage.

Even ZB is a cut and shut job. Just a lot easier for ZB being a fatter car. I have no doubt Ford plowed quite a bit of money at the Mustang Supercar. If you watch the build doco it was just a pain in the ass to make the body fit let alone worrying about making it fast. But as argued by another it's not going to stop 888 or Holden teams from being able to homologate the next model Commodore.

quote:

This was the gap was 0.9 seconds at both Albert Park and Philip Island.

That's between the fastest Mustang and the Fastest ZB. Between DJRTP and Triple 8... for some events the gap has been around 2 seconds (not that I think this is a fair comparison, Triple 8 was clearly off their game at those events).

There's no doubt a lot of money was spent developing the Mustang, and the result is an extremely fast race car. Unless something changes, all future homologation teams will need similar budgets to be competitive against the fastest car.

Yeah that over one lap, set up to be the fastest for qualifying. Having a .9 edge in race trim would see all 6 Mustangs lead with daylight to 7th. And as I said before. Any development gains by "spending money" is cancelled out by "parity adjustments".

We are told that a race car is already $500-600K to build. If 888 developed ZB for $1.5m with the help of Holden, spitting out a new model will not be a problem.


quote:
Originally posted by Fast by Ferracci

On a garage tour with GRM a few years back, it was explained to us that the chassis isnít the same for everyone. After 40% of the build is complete, each individual model is quite different and itís not a simple job to swap between models.

Under the current rule they are the same. With exception of difference mounting points for panels and some ancillaries.

Under Blueprint I would imaging there were still major chassis differences.

The Kelly Vlog is going to be very insightful, converting an Altima into a Mustang.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford

Edited by - AlbertM on 15 Nov 2019 18:00:07
Go to Top of Page

Fast by Ferracci
Team Manager



10471 Posts
joined 23 Sep 04

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  19:53:43  Show Profile Send Fast by Ferracci a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

quote:
Originally posted by oldtimer

A lot of the costs are due to silly stipulations that do not add to the racing.

i.e. Why can't they say that the engine must meet power standards, but how you get there is entirely up to the team.

If you look at part 1 of the Kelly Mustang build, you will hear, time and time again, that you can't buy parts, pulleys etc etc. It has to be individually designed and manufactured.

Yet there are a stack of purchasable parts that could do the job.

888's engine builders have suggested they could build a GM V8 (and probably Ford) at a significantly lower cost to get the same performance. Their more powerful Sprint Car engines are much cheaper.


Maybe they should just adopt TA2 regs with a modern bodies and an equivalent Ford engine to the GM. That would be a lot cheaper and racing would be just as good, or better.


https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/11/14/video-work-underway-on-kelly-racing-mustang-build/



Reliability could be the reason. Component failures are few and far between since teams started making their own parts. Sort of a trade off, spend big tooling up, making parts yourself or buying several parts to limit failures.

quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert


The mustang cost more because every body panel was custom engineered to make the car as fast as possible within the restrictions of the rule book.

Other cars were cheaper, because nearly all of the panels had no engineering work at all other than figuring out where to place bolts attaching them to the chassis/roll cage.

Even ZB is a cut and shut job. Just a lot easier for ZB being a fatter car. I have no doubt Ford plowed quite a bit of money at the Mustang Supercar. If you watch the build doco it was just a pain in the ass to make the body fit let alone worrying about making it fast. But as argued by another it's not going to stop 888 or Holden teams from being able to homologate the next model Commodore.

quote:

This was the gap was 0.9 seconds at both Albert Park and Philip Island.

That's between the fastest Mustang and the Fastest ZB. Between DJRTP and Triple 8... for some events the gap has been around 2 seconds (not that I think this is a fair comparison, Triple 8 was clearly off their game at those events).

There's no doubt a lot of money was spent developing the Mustang, and the result is an extremely fast race car. Unless something changes, all future homologation teams will need similar budgets to be competitive against the fastest car.

Yeah that over one lap, set up to be the fastest for qualifying. Having a .9 edge in race trim would see all 6 Mustangs lead with daylight to 7th. And as I said before. Any development gains by "spending money" is cancelled out by "parity adjustments".

We are told that a race car is already $500-600K to build. If 888 developed ZB for $1.5m with the help of Holden, spitting out a new model will not be a problem.


quote:
Originally posted by Fast by Ferracci

On a garage tour with GRM a few years back, it was explained to us that the chassis isnít the same for everyone. After 40% of the build is complete, each individual model is quite different and itís not a simple job to swap between models.

Under the current rule they are the same. With exception of difference mounting points for panels and some ancillaries.

Under Blueprint I would imaging there were still major chassis differences.

The Kelly Vlog is going to be very insightful, converting an Altima into a Mustang.



This garage tour was during the Volvo years
Go to Top of Page

AlbertM
Crackpot



13000 Posts
joined 15 Jan 03

 offline

Posted - 15 Nov 2019 :  21:19:49  Show Profile  Visit AlbertM's Homepage Send AlbertM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Interesting, did they tell you what was different. I assumed the cage and chassis ends are the same as they all run the same rear end and suspension type.

Ford fans be proud. History of Australian motor racing shows Ford has been and will always be superior. They have to slow them down when they get serious about racing. The Phase 4 scared the **** out of people, they banned it. Sierra gets called on a technicality, Falcon EF "...had its wings clipped to make Holden part of the show", AU not allowed to show it's potential, Falcon BF gets clipped. Mustang Is so good Supercars made up a rule and gets a bag of cement in the roof, and it still wins.
_Mford
Go to Top of Page

Dasha
V8 Champion



Australia
1493 Posts
joined 28 Feb 03

 offline

Posted - 16 Nov 2019 :  17:55:03  Show Profile  Visit Dasha's Homepage  Click to see Dasha's MSN Messenger address  Send Dasha a Yahoo! Message Send Dasha a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AlbertM

BTW, 888 could run a ride on lawn mower and Supercars would slow the Fords to match. So it make no difference how much money Penske throws at the sport.



Hahaha that's classic, but unfortunately very true.

For great racing just add water.
Go to Top of Page

BLU-125
Pit Crew



Australia
204 Posts
joined 01 Aug 09

 offline

Posted - 16 Nov 2019 :  21:50:11  Show Profile Send BLU-125 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
This argument goes on and on. It seems that people have difficulty with change. I am not sure TCR is the solution, but maybe it is, because it is as sure as hell that Supercars is broken.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  











 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Share
Jump To:
V8Central Forums © 2001 - 2020 V8Central Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 1.23 seconds.