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abhibeckert
Formula Ford Driver



Australia
400 Posts
joined 10 Jan 18

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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  17:41:16  Show Profile  Visit abhibeckert's Homepage Send abhibeckert a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Sonic

when you have a sequential box you don't have to bother with a clutch... you don't have to know how to gate properly... just slam it and let the computer do all the work...

I've never driven a V8 supercar, to be sure. But I have in the simulator and believe me you can't just "slam it" into another gear and let the computer do the work.

Shifting gears is difficult and plenty of skill is required to shift while the car is at the grip limit.

Sure, straight line acceleration up shifts are easy, but that's only because you're nowhere near the grip limit and those shifts are just as easy with a H pattern. Slower shifts would be the only real change.

Even under brakes, all of the drivers - except Fabian - are heel and toe downshifting with a blip of the throttle. They're doing it for a reason, otherwise why waste fuel on a blip when every litre of fuel increases the chance you'll drop a position in the next pit stop? Without the clutch and a perfect blip your lap times would be slower. And drivers get it wrong all the time.

quote:
bring the driving back to the driver... driving errors is one of the things that creates passing opportunities... look at the lower classes for your proof... miss a gear coming off a corner and you drop a spot by the next... mistreat the clutch and maybe you don't make the race end...

I totally agree. And I think nearly everyone in pit lane also agrees.

But would it actually be more difficult with a H pattern? I'm not convinced, it seems to me slower gear changes would actually be easier in many ways.

But most of all does anyone make a H pattern gearbox strong enough to survive the punishment?

Edited by - abhibeckert on 25 Feb 2020 17:42:44
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Kieron302
Team Manager


Australia
6354 Posts
joined 14 May 03

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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  18:13:25  Show Profile Send Kieron302 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
TCM use 4spd H pattern cog swappers, HP of them must be north of 600hp.
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Jam3s
Team Manager


2837 Posts
joined 02 Mar 13

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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  18:45:00  Show Profile Send Jam3s a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You guys can talk about H patterns until you're blue in the face but it will never happen, so can we discuss something actually relevant?

Just be thankful that X-trac lied to Supercars about the cost of updating to paddle shifting, because we would have it this season otherwise.
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m4rf
Fujitsu Driver



626 Posts
joined 08 Mar 12

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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  19:12:00  Show Profile Send m4rf a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Well like I said the brake and sway bar adjustment can be removed which will definitely save money. I'm fine with the sequential boxes but I wish some of the telemetry was removed so as people have said let the good drivers give the feedback for car setup.

To dare is to do.
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Rampaging Monkey
Team Manager


1901 Posts
joined 18 Feb 06

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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  20:01:40  Show Profile  Visit Rampaging Monkey's Homepage Send Rampaging Monkey a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert
But most of all does anyone make a H pattern gearbox strong enough to survive the punishment?



Of course they do, the category used a suitable Holinger box before, the internals of the gearbox are pretty much the same between any box. The only difference between a H-pattern and a sequential is the selector mechanism.




I don't know if H-pattern is more difficult, but it's certainly more fun to watch, for instance Skaifey downshifting straight from 6th to 2nd double clutching through neutral (momentarily shifting into neutral to synchronise the gearbox output shaft to the rear wheels):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfAp7UjM4-k

While not a racing gearbox, it's fun to watch the H-patterns being worked on Best Motoring. For instance, Kurosawa in a NSX Type R:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFcAfutQqTo
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skaifeman
Team Manager



Australia
7267 Posts
joined 01 Aug 09

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Posted - 26 Feb 2020 :  11:34:20  Show Profile Send skaifeman a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Fantastic videos above. I was trying to find a Skaife H-Pattern video - down Conrod into the Chase.


"Fordís Bathurst winning bonus didnít even cover the cost of the after-party" - Allan Moffat, 1977
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abhibeckert
Formula Ford Driver



Australia
400 Posts
joined 10 Jan 18

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Posted - 26 Feb 2020 :  15:15:47  Show Profile  Visit abhibeckert's Homepage Send abhibeckert a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Rampaging Monkey

quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert
But most of all does anyone make a H pattern gearbox strong enough to survive the punishment?


Of course they do, the category used a suitable Holinger box before,

They stopped using that gearbox for a reason surely? Does anyone know why?

quote:
the internals of the gearbox are pretty much the same between any box.

Most H-pattern boxes have syncronised gears, most Sequential gearboxes have dog gears.

There are some H-pattern dog boxes, like the Holinger you linked, but they're pretty rare.
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troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
3086 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

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Posted - 26 Feb 2020 :  15:59:24  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert

quote:
Originally posted by Rampaging Monkey

quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert
But most of all does anyone make a H pattern gearbox strong enough to survive the punishment?


Of course they do, the category used a suitable Holinger box before,

They stopped using that gearbox for a reason surely? Does anyone know why?

quote:
the internals of the gearbox are pretty much the same between any box.

Most H-pattern boxes have syncronised gears, most Sequential gearboxes have dog gears.

There are some H-pattern dog boxes, like the Holinger you linked, but they're pretty rare.



Quicker gear changes and less chance of missing a gear
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Rampaging Monkey
Team Manager


1901 Posts
joined 18 Feb 06

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Posted - 26 Feb 2020 :  18:54:12  Show Profile  Visit Rampaging Monkey's Homepage Send Rampaging Monkey a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by abhibeckert
There are some H-pattern dog boxes, like the Holinger you linked, but they're pretty rare.



My bad, I meant the internals are much the same between any racing gearbox.

Even an F1 gearbox is a kind of sequential manual box with paddle-shift actuators (it is a common misconception that is a dual-clutch, but dual-clutch gearboxes are banned in F1), it just has some electronic trickery to allow it to shift very fast without grenading itself.
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