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Fast by Ferracci
Team Manager



10343 Posts
joined 23 Sep 04

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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  11:59:26  Show Profile Send Fast by Ferracci a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Rampaging Monkey



R&D cost far, far, far exceeds unit cost. Control parts make sense.

Remember, Team Penske used to make their own Indycars and even teamed up with Mercedes to make one-off Indy 500 engines because they had the money to do so. I am sure they would like to do so again, but they go along with the control cars and parts in Indycar because even though it makes it harder for them to find an advantage, it makes it a lot easier for small teams like Dale Coyne Racing to be competitive and is therefore good for the sport. :)

Team Penske still win most of the time, but they win by a lot less than they would if there were no control parts in Indycar!

quote:

How far would you go to win one race?

Would you design an engine completely from scratch with the knowledge that it would almost certainly be banned by the next race, expending hundreds of thousands of dollars in development and production costs just to score that lone victory?

Mercedes and Ilmor would—and did. Their 500I 3.4l turbocharged, methanol-fueled V8 was a clean-sheet design constructed with a sole purpose: To exploit a loophole in the 1994 IndyCar rulebook and thus win that year’s Indianapolis 500.


http://www.spannerhead.com/2012/12/26/interesting-engines-the-mercedes-ilmor-500i/


Penske PC-23 - Mercedes



It depends who is paying for the R&D as to whether the costs go up. If companies want to be involved, they fund it and the teams benefit. The way things are now, all costs are worn by the teams and whatever funds they can attract with the current limited media package.

Control parts ensure a gradual escalation in costs as the winning tender wants to get its money back and then make a tidy profit, and also ensures a stagnation of development

Team Penske stopped building their own Indycars long before control cars and parts came into Indy-style racing, and Penske's team has long called for the current control formula to be changed, which it is starting to be thankfully

Penske has long spoken of wanting the "unfair advantage" in racing too. The current control part nature of Indycar racing has also not helped little teams at all. All it has done has amplified the advantage of three teams. Since the IRL went "spec" in 2006 only Penske, Andretti or Ganassi have won championships and they've won all the Indy 500s bar one.
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joe5619
Team Manager



Australia
4452 Posts
joined 01 Mar 03

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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  12:42:03  Show Profile Send joe5619 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Fast by Ferracci

quote:
Originally posted by joe5619


We need more control parts, not less.



If you want the costs the continually rise while the product stays stagnant, then yes go with your plan

Name one form of motorsports (outside of F1's) heading in the direction of less & not more control parts?
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Fast by Ferracci
Team Manager



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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  15:35:29  Show Profile Send Fast by Ferracci a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by joe5619

quote:
Originally posted by Fast by Ferracci

quote:
Originally posted by joe5619


We need more control parts, not less.



If you want the costs the continually rise while the product stays stagnant, then yes go with your plan

Name one form of motorsports (outside of F1's) heading in the direction of less & not more control parts?



Indycar has openly stated they are gradually freeing up development areas for teams in the cars year by year. Ultimately they want a car to break the track record which has stood since 1996
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troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
2521 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  15:56:05  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by journeyman racer

quote:
Originally posted by troy01505


Generating more funds in Supercars smaller teams is not very easy with the sport in it's current state. If costs remain as they are or climb higher we will see at least 3 disappear in 3-5 years.


Your post actually helps me to make my point.

If you did what Morris said to do. It's not really going to change much. Saving these guys a few $100k doesn't do much.

Whatever money they'd save, they typically spend it on something else where they may gain an advantage. If not, then it'll mean they'd further reduce their own costs. Like offloading employees. Then they're in the same position as before, but with a lesser amount.

The challenge for supercars, is to make supercars so low in costs, that they can afford to thrown money at making their cars better. Not just keep afloat as it seems to mainly be the point.

You look at Excels at the other end of the motorsport spectrum. Costs of winning in Excels has been jacked up disproportionality to what the cars are worth. But because they're so low to compete in the first place, they maintain numbers. But even the excessive costs are not that high so prevent the middle, tail end runners ever spending more to get up the front in the future.

Supercars has to make their cars disproportionally cheap to run at the back. But even Morris' idea wouldn't do that. It's also a closed shop, so that makes it more expensive.

To make it cheaper to run at the back, they'd need to abolish RECs. Have guys turn up and try to qualify. But they're too chicken to do that.



Roland Dane has stated cost have increased significantly since COTF and also their current sponsorship packages are worth less then what they were in 2012. Cochrane is one of the smartest men in Aussie motorsport! He sold up and jumped off a sinking ship and at a ridiculously stupid price for the buyer.
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Rampaging Monkey
Team Manager


1873 Posts
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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  17:05:55  Show Profile  Visit Rampaging Monkey's Homepage Send Rampaging Monkey a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Fast by Ferracci
Indycar has openly stated they are gradually freeing up development areas for teams in the cars year by year. Ultimately they want a car to break the track record which has stood since 1996



Very interesting!

In that case, what rules do you propose for the Supercars series? :)

[I would propose a class based on real world sports sedans like Alfa Giulia QV, BMW M3, Jaguar XE S etc similar to GT3 but with four doors and a bit less aero, but would think that balance-of-performance would be necessary in such a class. If it would be possible to do it without BOP that would be wonderful -- but seems like it would be challenging to ensure close racing.]

quote:
Originally posted by troy01505
Roland Dane has stated cost have increased significantly since COTF and also their current sponsorship packages are worth less then what they were in 2012.



What a mess! So what rules do you propose to cut costs? :)

Edited by - Rampaging Monkey on 27 Jun 2019 17:06:41
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bigcol
Team Manager



Australia
13314 Posts
joined 06 Feb 04

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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  20:46:53  Show Profile Send bigcol a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I'm still calling BS on the half a mill for the weekend.

ONLY LITTLE BOYZ WEAR BOWTIES
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Trickyonne
Sex God



Vatican City
17527 Posts
joined 13 Apr 03

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Posted - 27 Jun 2019 :  20:53:50  Show Profile Send Trickyonne a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I have mate who races a stadium truck in desert races ( finke ect ) and he estimates a weekend is 50k .....yes I was gobsmacked...so I can see a v8 team costing a whole lot more.
Wages
Accomodation
Ect ect

Ford 2018 champions
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murph_fan51
Team Manager



New Zealand
8086 Posts
joined 13 Dec 02

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Posted - 11 Aug 2019 :  08:46:56  Show Profile  Visit murph_fan51's Homepage  Send murph_fan51 a Yahoo! Message Send murph_fan51 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Episode 7 was really good. The chat about rivalries was interesting. Ingall doesn’t agree with drivers hanging out as mates, reckons the racing could be affected.

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lyro
Formula Ford Driver



Australia
286 Posts
joined 03 Aug 09

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Posted - 11 Aug 2019 :  10:32:40  Show Profile Send lyro a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by murph_fan51

Episode 7 was really good. The chat about rivalries was interesting. Ingall doesn’t agree with drivers hanging out as mates, reckons the racing could be affected.



Yes, there wasn't much of a tussle between JW anadromous WD at least not a serious go. I didn't think Wd gave enough of a fight or blocking. If this is the case throughout the field then it will be a pretty tame show eh.
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Fast by Ferracci
Team Manager



10343 Posts
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Posted - 11 Aug 2019 :  11:19:17  Show Profile Send Fast by Ferracci a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Totally agree, drivers in general are too matey matey these days

Give me a podium where Senna, Mansell and Prost or Rainey, Schwantz and Kocinski would stand there not acknowledging eachother any day
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REM
Team Manager



Australia
14224 Posts
joined 27 Sep 03

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Posted - 11 Aug 2019 :  12:10:27  Show Profile Send REM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Fast by Ferracci

Totally agree, drivers in general are too matey matey these days

Give me a podium where Senna, Mansell and Prost or Rainey, Schwantz and Kocinski would stand there not acknowledging eachother any day



Yeah interesting......but people went completely ape poo on social media when Scotty went down to see Davey at his garage when Davey ran into him a few weeks ago...

There was no social media back then....no abuse, no death threats...certainly not like now....

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid!
"Remember that in the end nobody wins, unless everybody wins!" Springsteen BTR.


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djr18fan
Team Manager



New Zealand
1728 Posts
joined 06 Jul 06

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Posted - 11 Aug 2019 :  14:26:50  Show Profile Send djr18fan a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Episode 7 was too long in my opinion.
Half the length and twice as often would be better.

_Mford
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REM
Team Manager



Australia
14224 Posts
joined 27 Sep 03

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Posted - 06 Sep 2019 :  19:15:29  Show Profile Send REM a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Episode 9-with Ross Stone, bloody legend!

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/09/06/video-enforcer-the-dude-episode-9/?fbclid=IwAR2vPREpifAMwpaOeZcVUnujLYB-iAsS311IJxT-2B_5jcMTMzqTtle6csA

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid!
"Remember that in the end nobody wins, unless everybody wins!" Springsteen BTR.


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troy01505
Team Manager



Australia
2521 Posts
joined 25 Feb 08

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Posted - 07 Sep 2019 :  08:01:48  Show Profile Send troy01505 a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Next one will be interesting after todays news
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lyro
Formula Ford Driver



Australia
286 Posts
joined 03 Aug 09

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Posted - 08 Sep 2019 :  10:02:09  Show Profile Send lyro a Private Message  Reply with Quote Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by REM

Episode 9-with Ross Stone, bloody legend!



Man was that Aussie racer a weapon or what. She was pretty wild eh
Didn't know they had so much grunt. Russell sure showed its strength.

Ross Stone was classic grandpa racer he was great to listen to and opened a few eyes.
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