Ok so I've read a Speedcafe article which says that there is a new REC system which caps the grid at 26 cars. This infuriates me since the days of Bathurst having 30, 40, or even 50 cars are over. Most fans are in the same boat as me. What a way to piss off long-term fans.
The number of cars isn't the issue in regards to entertainment it's the excess aero
If these new Gen 3 cars do what they're supposed to do you won't care if there's only 26 cars
25 or 26 cars at most tracks is fine.
More at Bathurst for the sake of having slow cars & part timers get in the way & cause safety cars? I'd prefer not.
ignore the 1000 then and come and watch the 6/12 hour races.
the 6 hour is the origin of the Bathurst legend and starts with a full field. the 2022 event on Easter weekend is oversubscribed already.
Quote from: djr18fan on December 09, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
25 or 26 cars at most tracks is fine.
More at Bathurst for the sake of having slow cars & part timers get in the way & cause safety cars? I'd prefer not.
Was never a problem in the past, no reason Super 2 couldn't run in its own class.
Quote from: Sonic on December 09, 2021, 08:43:18 AM
ignore the 1000 then and come and watch the 6/12 hour races.
the 6 hour is the origin of the Bathurst legend and starts with a full field. the 2022 event on Easter weekend is oversubscribed already.
100% This. It is a fantastic event. It's basically what the 1000 used to be. Class racing, accessible to normal racers.
Quote from: Troy01505 on December 09, 2021, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 09, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
25 or 26 cars at most tracks is fine.
More at Bathurst for the sake of having slow cars & part timers get in the way & cause safety cars? I'd prefer not.
Was never a problem in the past, no reason Super 2 couldn't run in its own class.
\
Super 2 teams are generally not equipped to run refueling and wheel change duties.
Super 2 teams rely on pay drivers and there is a limit to what smaller sponsors and the bank of mum and dad are prepared to spend.
Quote from: stevo qld on December 09, 2021, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: Troy01505 on December 09, 2021, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 09, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
25 or 26 cars at most tracks is fine.
More at Bathurst for the sake of having slow cars & part timers get in the way & cause safety cars? I'd prefer not.
Was never a problem in the past, no reason Super 2 couldn't run in its own class.
\
Super 2 teams are generally not equipped to run refueling and wheel change duties.
Super 2 teams rely on pay drivers and there is a limit to what smaller sponsors and the bank of mum and dad are prepared to spend.
No reason the teams that run both categories can't do their stops for their super 2 cars. Other supercar teams could help out for a few help out also, obviously pit priority to main game cars. Have a 2nd class trophy. plenty of staffing from the automotive tafe schools and other motorsport categories on the mountain each year that would be more then happy to donate their time and services to see a better quality of racing and gain further experience.
Quote from: stevo qld on December 09, 2021, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: Troy01505 on December 09, 2021, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 09, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
25 or 26 cars at most tracks is fine.
More at Bathurst for the sake of having slow cars & part timers get in the way & cause safety cars? I'd prefer not.
Was never a problem in the past, no reason Super 2 couldn't run in its own class.
\
Super 2 teams are generally not equipped to run refueling and wheel change duties.
Super 2 teams rely on pay drivers and there is a limit to what smaller sponsors and the bank of mum and dad are prepared to spend.
If a bunch of production car guys can manage wheel changes and refuelling at the Easter 6 Hour, I'd say Super 2 teams should be able to.
Ridiculously restrictive
With only 26 cars, spectators are watching plenty of empty tarmac at places like Bathurst....
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 09, 2021, 11:31:10 PM
Ridiculously restrictive
With only 26 cars, spectators are watching plenty of empty tarmac at places like Bathurst....
How many other places are like Bathurst?
Phillip Island? The Bend? I agree more cars would be good at Bathurst. How many pit bays are there? I remember when they lined up around Murray's corner ;D
Quote from: murph_fan51 on December 11, 2021, 06:20:15 PM
Phillip Island? The Bend? I agree more cars would be good at Bathurst. How many pit bays are there? I remember when they lined up around Murray's corner ;D
don't recall how many pit bays there are... 40?.. but they still line up around the corner in the 6 hour every event.
enough that if they decided to do a full grid they could is the answer, they just don't want to.
and as for "we don't have enough drivers" I call bs on that, we have plenty good enough... they just don't have the funding and so they sit on the sidelines...
consider that they flew Mies in to drive in the TCR and GT event at Bathurst last week while the guy who co-drove with him and helped him get the Aus title was sitting around and could have equally done the job but he has no backing :(
Quote from: murph_fan51 on December 11, 2021, 06:20:15 PM
Phillip Island? The Bend? I agree more cars would be good at Bathurst. How many pit bays are there? I remember when they lined up around Murray's corner ;D
There are 36 two-car garages, the current pit complex was designed in 2004 to accomodate up to 72 cars, specifically with the Bathurst 24 Hour in mind (ironically the B24 was axed right as the new pits were being built)
The idea of the current pit lane wasn't fit every car to have its own garage door, it was for DJR, as an example, to run both cars out of the same garage door.
Don't ever loose sight of who owns Supercars, yes there is a 'new' owner but the teams are shareholders too
if the wealth is spread over 15 teams (not sure of exact number) why would they want the wealth spread thinner? I certainly wouldn't
The get money from the the TV deal, they get money from sponsors, I reckon they get a share of the gate takings (except at Winton), why would they want to spread that thinner?
Quote from: Trevor on December 13, 2021, 05:51:19 AM
Don't ever loose sight of who owns Supercars, yes there is a 'new' owner but the teams are shareholders too
if the wealth is spread over 15 teams (not sure of exact number) why would they want the wealth spread thinner? I certainly wouldn't
The get money from the the TV deal, they get money from sponsors, I reckon they get a share of the gate takings (except at Winton), why would they want to spread that thinner?
I think you are out of date.
The teams are no longer shareholders and the 25 team cars have a guaranteed income regardless of the number of additional cars, although notionally capped at 26.
so, are they franchisee's?
I am probably out of date, it has been a while since I was intimately involved
Quote from: Trevor on December 13, 2021, 09:00:39 AM
so, are they franchisee's?
I am probably out of date, it has been a while since I was intimately involved
Speedcafe did a good article:
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/12/08/explained-supercars-new-teams-racing-charter-system/
an interesting read for sure:
Quote
Speedcafe.com understands the 25 licences are guaranteed $650,000 per annum over five years based on a 12-round calendar, with extra revenue per additional event. Currently, 13 rounds are slated to take place in 2022
$650k per year isn't much, there must be something else in the deal they are not saying
Quote
"If there are additional events, then they're paid more money to do them, so the teams are not left wondering whether there's enough money being earned. They know how much money they'll get at the beginning of the year. Where in the past we never have.
I can't find it now, but I recall reading that the "25" will, in addition, get a substantial cash payment toward the construction of the new "cheap" Gen 3 cars.
Quote from: Trevor on December 13, 2021, 10:01:49 AM
an interesting read for sure:
Quote
Speedcafe.com understands the 25 licences are guaranteed $650,000 per annum over five years based on a 12-round calendar, with extra revenue per additional event. Currently, 13 rounds are slated to take place in 2022
$650k per year isn't much, there must be something else in the deal they are not saying
Quote
"If there are additional events, then they're paid more money to do them, so the teams are not left wondering whether there's enough money being earned. They know how much money they'll get at the beginning of the year. Where in the past we never have.
Does not sound like much but 650k a year per car on top of all the other money teams bring in is actually pretty good and relieves a huge burden of the lower budget teams who once struggled to fund upgrades. The few estimates/guesses I've heard have been between 50-75k for each extra event but most seem to think it's on the lower side of that.
There's always going to be a team or 2 looking better then the rest but what ever has changed the last year or 2 it has helped a few teams climb up the grid a bit and more drivers are now able to score top 5s and 10s. If the next gen car cheapens up (highly unlikely based on previous history) then we should see 15 different cars score top 5s a few times a season as all teams will be running the latest upgrade.
How much is a engine worth?
The teams would also have received a lump sum payment from the sale of their shares in supercars.
Part of the sale agreement would be on the condition that they receive future income. They need a sustainable, competitive, marketable category. Extra underfunded entrants coming and going don't help build fan loyalty. Could well harm the categories reputation.
Quote from: Trevor on December 14, 2021, 12:43:15 AM
How much is a engine worth?
A lot less than now!
Both purchase and maintenance.
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 05:56:33 AM. Extra underfunded entrants coming and going don't help build fan loyalty. Could well harm the categories reputation.
My god, how ever did the series survive for so many decades without franchises and guaranteed incomes.
Funnily enough the privateers coming and going built the fan loyalty that the series has lived off since 1997!
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 14, 2021, 09:16:22 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 05:56:33 AM. Extra underfunded entrants coming and going don't help build fan loyalty. Could well harm the categories reputation.
My god, how ever did the series survive for so many decades without franchises and guaranteed incomes.
Funnily enough the privateers coming and going built the fan loyalty that the series has lived off since 1997!
It struggled.
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 11:09:55 AM
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 14, 2021, 09:16:22 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 05:56:33 AM. Extra underfunded entrants coming and going don't help build fan loyalty. Could well harm the categories reputation.
My god, how ever did the series survive for so many decades without franchises and guaranteed incomes.
Funnily enough the privateers coming and going built the fan loyalty that the series has lived off since 1997!
It struggled.
Every promo for the series these days harks back to the 60s and 70s, the Gen3 cars were released with old cars in the background, they say the Ford v Holden rivalry was forged in the 60s and 70s....
Yet now you're saying it struggled. Right....
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 14, 2021, 11:56:51 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 11:09:55 AM
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 14, 2021, 09:16:22 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 05:56:33 AM. Extra underfunded entrants coming and going don't help build fan loyalty. Could well harm the categories reputation.
My god, how ever did the series survive for so many decades without franchises and guaranteed incomes.
Funnily enough the privateers coming and going built the fan loyalty that the series has lived off since 1997!
It struggled.
Every promo for the series these days harks back to the 60s and 70s, the Gen3 cars were released with old cars in the background, they say the Ford v Holden rivalry was forged in the 60s and 70s....
Yet now you're saying it struggled. Right....
Yes it struggled, it's the bones of where we came from but in the "old glory day" apart from the top few teams everyone else either full time businesses or had full time employment outside of the sport, these days they are making money and almost all teams have a full time staff member for almost every role in the team. Series and teams are in the best financial position they have ever been.
Quote from: Trevor on December 14, 2021, 10:19:15 AM
Quote from: stevo qld on December 14, 2021, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: Trevor on December 14, 2021, 12:43:15 AM
How much is a engine worth?
A lot less than now!
Both purchase and maintenance.
so, around the $250k mark?
This thread is straying away from 25 cars into the Gen 3 thread, so I will just add this one I found and then retire from the thread.
Quote
Are there rules and regulations about the types of engine used in V8 Supercars?
With the car manufacturers scaling back their involvement in Supercars over the past decade, Supercars has taken a more direct role in the development of the new Gen3 engine specifications. Because of that, they haven't been forced to write a specific rule book but have instead taken a more holistic view of the engine development to ensure they get V8 engines that are more road car-relevant but also loud, powerful and cheaper.
Cutting costs has been a key element of these new rules, with the current 5.0-litre engines costing up to $150,000. The target price for these new units is between $65-70,000.
Another key way to save costs is reduced work on maintaining the engines, so Supercars is targeting 5000km service intervals initially, but the intention is to stretch that to 10,000km eventually. That's a vast improvement over the current engines that require maintenance every 4000km; which itself is a big leap forward from the 1000km overhauls some teams used to do.
This is one of the main reasons for the switch to the larger capacity engines, because it will mean less stress on components which should extend parts life.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/v8-supercars-engine-specifications-85166
Quote from: Troy01505 on December 14, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 14, 2021, 11:56:51 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 11:09:55 AM
Quote from: Roadways6 on December 14, 2021, 09:16:22 AM
Quote from: djr18fan on December 14, 2021, 05:56:33 AM. Extra underfunded entrants coming and going don't help build fan loyalty. Could well harm the categories reputation.
My god, how ever did the series survive for so many decades without franchises and guaranteed incomes.
Funnily enough the privateers coming and going built the fan loyalty that the series has lived off since 1997!
It struggled.
Every promo for the series these days harks back to the 60s and 70s, the Gen3 cars were released with old cars in the background, they say the Ford v Holden rivalry was forged in the 60s and 70s....
Yet now you're saying it struggled. Right....
Yes it struggled, it's the bones of where we came from but in the "old glory day" apart from the top few teams everyone else either full time businesses or had full time employment outside of the sport, these days they are making money and almost all teams have a full time staff member for almost every role in the team. Series and teams are in the best financial position they have ever been.
You've gone off on a completely irrelevant pathway.
The poster said that non full-time entrants would harm fan loyalty and the categories reputation.
The poster forgets that the fan loyalty enjoyed today was BUILT by the part time privateers, and the category lives off the reputation built by the ATCC at a time when there were plenty of part-time entrants. Just watch a modern day telecast, they slender half the time trying to link everything back to the 70s and 89s....