https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/10/11/fia-confirms-red-bull-broke-2021-f1-cost-cap/
So it's been confirmed Red Bull breached the cost cap for 2021.
For me, they need to come down hard on them. If you don't, people will continue to abuse it and then use the Red Bull penalty as an example of how much they should be penalised also.
I would take the WDC and Constructors title off them from 2021.
Don't award them to Mercedes, just have the year as a non-result, as they have in the NRL previously.
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Quote from: madbugger on October 11, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Would make for a pretty poor champion in that end I think...
I don't know how much RB is supposed to have breached by but Max was so monstrously better than anyone else last year, nobody else deserved to even be close in the chase for the no 1
Quote from: Sonic on October 12, 2022, 08:33:59 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 11, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Would make for a pretty poor champion in that end I think...
I don't know how much RB is supposed to have breached by but Max was so monstrously better than anyone else last year, nobody else deserved to even be close in the chase for the no 1
why? If they cheated, they had an unfair advantage, therefore should be excluded.
Wasn't the championship won in the last race of the season, due to a dodgy decision at a safety car restart? I wouldn't call that monstrously better than anyone else, I'd call it extremely lucky
Quote from: madbugger on October 13, 2022, 06:01:32 AM
Quote from: Sonic on October 12, 2022, 08:33:59 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 11, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Would make for a pretty poor champion in that end I think...
I don't know how much RB is supposed to have breached by but Max was so monstrously better than anyone else last year, nobody else deserved to even be close in the chase for the no 1
why? If they cheated, they had an unfair advantage, therefore should be excluded.
Wasn't the championship won in the last race of the season, due to a dodgy decision at a safety car restart? I wouldn't call that monstrously better than anyone else, I'd call it extremely lucky
Taken out 3? (or was it 4) times through the season by the Merc guys (not talking intent).... led more laps than all the other drivers combined over the season (50.3% of all laps... next best LH on 22.9%!)
Max was in a league of his own.
I do agree with you the final race of the season was not a good look but in no way did Lewis even come close to deserving anything in 2021
Quote from: Sonic on October 13, 2022, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 13, 2022, 06:01:32 AM
Quote from: Sonic on October 12, 2022, 08:33:59 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 11, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Would make for a pretty poor champion in that end I think...
I don't know how much RB is supposed to have breached by but Max was so monstrously better than anyone else last year, nobody else deserved to even be close in the chase for the no 1
why? If they cheated, they had an unfair advantage, therefore should be excluded.
Wasn't the championship won in the last race of the season, due to a dodgy decision at a safety car restart? I wouldn't call that monstrously better than anyone else, I'd call it extremely lucky
Taken out 3? (or was it 4) times through the season by the Merc guys (not talking intent).... led more laps than all the other drivers combined over the season (50.3% of all laps... next best LH on 22.9%!)
Max was in a league of his own.
I do agree with you the final race of the season was not a good look but in no way did Lewis even come close to deserving anything in 2021
Maybe he was in a league of his own because they spent more than anyone else on the grid.
Quote from: Troy01505 on October 13, 2022, 09:54:38 AM
Quote from: Sonic on October 13, 2022, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 13, 2022, 06:01:32 AM
Quote from: Sonic on October 12, 2022, 08:33:59 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 11, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Would make for a pretty poor champion in that end I think...
I don't know how much RB is supposed to have breached by but Max was so monstrously better than anyone else last year, nobody else deserved to even be close in the chase for the no 1
why? If they cheated, they had an unfair advantage, therefore should be excluded.
Wasn't the championship won in the last race of the season, due to a dodgy decision at a safety car restart? I wouldn't call that monstrously better than anyone else, I'd call it extremely lucky
Taken out 3? (or was it 4) times through the season by the Merc guys (not talking intent).... led more laps than all the other drivers combined over the season (50.3% of all laps... next best LH on 22.9%!)
Max was in a league of his own.
I do agree with you the final race of the season was not a good look but in no way did Lewis even come close to deserving anything in 2021
Maybe he was in a league of his own because they spent more than anyone else on the grid.
Exactly.. If nothing comes of it, his first championship is now tainted in more than one way.
I wouldn't say that we was so far in front of anyone else performance wise. There were multiple times that Max could have kept himself clean and in the lead of the points, but made some pretty dumb decisions.
I don't back either Max or Lewis, I don't like either of them. It's taking it off topic, but if Max doesn't turn in at Silverstone, and doesn't pull a stupid move at Italy, he wins easily and there's no questions regarding his championship (besides the new details about breaching the cap).
Quote from: V8SuperRiley on October 13, 2022, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: Troy01505 on October 13, 2022, 09:54:38 AM
Quote from: Sonic on October 13, 2022, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 13, 2022, 06:01:32 AM
Quote from: Sonic on October 12, 2022, 08:33:59 AM
Quote from: madbugger on October 11, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I think MB won the constructors title anyway.
Red Bull cheated to win, they should be excluded from the championship and the drivers title awarded to Lewis
Would make for a pretty poor champion in that end I think...
I don't know how much RB is supposed to have breached by but Max was so monstrously better than anyone else last year, nobody else deserved to even be close in the chase for the no 1
why? If they cheated, they had an unfair advantage, therefore should be excluded.
Wasn't the championship won in the last race of the season, due to a dodgy decision at a safety car restart? I wouldn't call that monstrously better than anyone else, I'd call it extremely lucky
Taken out 3? (or was it 4) times through the season by the Merc guys (not talking intent).... led more laps than all the other drivers combined over the season (50.3% of all laps... next best LH on 22.9%!)
Max was in a league of his own.
I do agree with you the final race of the season was not a good look but in no way did Lewis even come close to deserving anything in 2021
Maybe he was in a league of his own because they spent more than anyone else on the grid.
Exactly.. If nothing comes of it, his first championship is now tainted in more than one way.
I wouldn't say that we was so far in front of anyone else performance wise. There were multiple times that Max could have kept himself clean and in the lead of the points, but made some pretty dumb decisions.
I don't back either Max or Lewis, I don't like either of them. It's taking it off topic, but if Max doesn't turn in at Silverstone, and doesn't pull a stupid move at Italy, he wins easily and there's no questions regarding his championship (besides the new details about breaching the cap).
Yep, I don't like either Max or Lewis either, and probably if backed up against a wall with a gun at my head and had to choose a favourite team, it would be Ferrari.
Max made a lot of stupid decisions during the year and could have won it easily, but now the cost cap thing taints his championship far more than the last race safety car thing. Red Bull had no control over that decision (Ihope), they had total control over the cost cap and the decision to spend more than allowed.
have any details about the breach actually been released? is it as simple as "we value labor at $100 an hour" and F1 valued it at $200 an hour?
it is hard to point fingers when we don't know what we're pointing at.
and, as with both above, I'm not a fan of either driver concerned here (or any really in F1)... just want to see hard, fair racing
Quote from: Sonic on October 13, 2022, 02:09:41 PM
have any details about the breach actually been released? is it as simple as "we value labor at $100 an hour" and F1 valued it at $200 an hour?
it is hard to point fingers when we don't know what we're pointing at.
and, as with both above, I'm not a fan of either driver concerned here (or any really in F1)... just want to see hard, fair racing
Ditto!
;)
I don't like the idea of having a non-Champion or constructors winner. But if you just take money away it actually favours the rich teams who wouldn't mind.
Taking away constructors points for the following year and any winnings from their money handout system for the offending and following year (based on where each constructor finishes) could help?
Ala. Max and RB overspend in 2021.
They lose all 2021 constructors winnings (keep the trophy, lose the money) and lose 2022 constructors winnings along with -100 constructors points (so they likely can't take home the silverware too).
I would add having their cap reduced for the next 2-3 years by the amount of overspend plus penalty.Not in the rules so they probably can't do it.
I'm not in favour of titles being taken away retrospectively although agree fines will have a minimal affect on Red Bull Racing.
Transparency will be the FIA's friend here and so far there is so little specific information about the breach we know little more than we did a few weeks ago,
i don't agree with taking the driver's championship/points away, however teams championship absolutely.
Max and Checo don't do the accounting so i don't believe they should be penalised for anything of the likes.
future restrictions on wind tunnel, r&d etc should be considered though, if they're let off lightly then every team in pit lane will just overspend and deal with the consequences later. this is the only opportunity the FIA have to stand their ground on the rules that have been set or it'll just give the impression that all rules are there to be "misinterpreted" and give free reign to every team.
Quote from: ignition on October 18, 2022, 12:40:26 PM
i don't agree with taking the driver's championship/points away, however teams championship absolutely.
Max and Checo don't do the accounting so i don't believe they should be penalised for anything of the likes.
future restrictions on wind tunnel, r&d etc should be considered though, if they're let off lightly then every team in pit lane will just overspend and deal with the consequences later. this is the only opportunity the FIA have to stand their ground on the rules that have been set or it'll just give the impression that all rules are there to be "misinterpreted" and give free reign to every team.
At the same time though, it's a team sport, and they have enjoyed any advantage that the team enjoyed as a whole.
I still stand by the penalties needing to be harsh, to try and prevent any teams doing it in the future.
If the penalty is only light, there is going to be an almighty uproar from their competitors.
The overspend was in 4 areas
-Catering
-An employee put on gardening leave whose salary was still counted by the FIA although that is not normal practice
-a ruling change by the FIA that had previously offered a discount for parts used in 2021 that couldn't be carried over to this year.That new FIA ruling was made in June this year
-a British tax office ruling about the deductibility of some of Red Bull's R and D.
So all that was in Red Bull's ability to control was the catering budget!The other 3 were unforseeable rulings by outside bodies.Total overspend 3%.
There are so many loopholes in the cost cap that it isn't believable anyway.
The verdict is in!
US$7 million fine and a further 10% reduction in wind tunnel hours for 2023.
I guess the will give the wind tunnel staff plenty of time to make the sandwiches next year. ;D
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.red-bull-enter-agreement-with-fia-over-breach-of-2021-financial-regulations.2ccVAHxnUpChqHSIDGMXmg.html
I wonder what price the FIA use to calculate the cost of a cup of coffee?
Quote from: stevo qld on October 29, 2022, 09:52:23 AM
I wonder what price the FIA use to calculate the cost of a cup of coffee?
can bet it won't be a $1 7/11 cup!